Mr. Ahmed Deedat
- I seek refuge in God from the accursed Satan -
- In the name of God, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful -
Quran 17:81 {And say: Truth hath come and falsehood hath vanished
away...}
17:81 {...Lo! falsehood is ever bound to vanish.}
17:82 {And We reveal of the Qur'an that which is a healing and a
mercy for believers...}
17:82 {...though it increase the evil-doers in naught save ruin.} -
God Almighty has spoken the truth -
Mr. Chairman and my dear brothers and sisters, at the outset, since
I'm beginning the talk and I see a lot of faces which appear to me
to be those of the Christian faith, I would like to put forth our
position vis-a-vis Christianity, that Islam is the only
non-Christian faith which makes it an article of faith for its
followers to believe in Jesus. No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not
believe in Jesus.
1) We are made to believe that Jesus Christ was one of the mightiest
messengers of God.
2) We believe in his miraculous birth, which many modern day
Christians do not believe today.
3) We believe that he was the Messiah, translated "Christ"
4) And we believe that he gave life to the dead by God's permission,
and he healed those born blind and the lepers by God's permission.
As such, the Muslim and the Christian is going together, but the
parting of the way takes place on 3 bases:
#1, The original sin
#2, The divinity of Christ
and #3, The crucifixion
These are points of differences between the Muslims and the
Christians.
With regards to the subject of crucifixion, as you see here on this
banner here, it says "Crucifixion, Fact or Fiction". Now the Holy
Quran gives a direct answer to that question.
It says: {In the Name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful}
4:157 {And they said in boast that we killed Christ Jesus, the son
of Mary, the apostle of God...}
The Quran goes on: 4:157 that {...they did not kill him, nor did
they crucify him...}
4:157 {...But it was made to appear to them so...}
4:157 {...And those who dispute therein, are full of doubts...}
4:157 {...They have no certain knowledge...}
4:157 {...They only follow conjecture...} Guesswork, fiction.
4:157 {...For of an assurity, they killed him not.}
It calls this event described by the Christians as crucifixion,
crucifixion, to fix a person on the cross
any how, by nails or ropes or strings, and have him killed. To
crucify means to kill by hanging or impaling on the cross. fixion,
Crucifixion. We say, it is Cruci - FICTION. It sounds the same,
crucifixion or crucifiction, the spelling gives us the difference
between the two, that in the Islamic point of view, it is a fiction.
Now, when we say that it is a fiction, the Christian brings forth,
produces his book of evidence. He says, here, we have a written
record by eyewitnesses and earwitnesses to the happenings some 2000
years ago. That Jesus Christ was hanged and killed on the cross some
2000 years ago.
Now, what I am going to do tonight is, instead of
telling you this is what the Muslims say, this is what the Quran
says, I said look, I want to show to you that the Bible that you
hold in your hands, whatever version you have, you will find the
verses that I'm going to quote and the argument I'm going to adduce.
See, Jesus Christ after his alleged crucifixion,
alleged crucifixion he returns to that upper room, where they had
the last supper, and he walks in and he says shalamalaikum, in
Hebrew, meaning peace be unto you. When he said peace be unto you,
his disciples were terrified. So I'm asking my learned friends, I
have been doing this for quite some time, my learned friends of
Christianity, why were they terrified? Because when you meet your
long lost master, your uncle, your grandfather, your priest, your
guru, the Arab and the Jew will embrace one another, kiss one
another in the neck, that's how they meet one another, show their
love and compassion for one another. Instead of doing that, the
disciples of Jesus were terrified. I want to know why. Why were they
terrified? So, the Christian tells me, he says you see, in Luke
chapter 24 we are told by Luke (24:37) that they were "affrighted"
because they thought he was a "SPIRIT". The wordings are, they
THOUGHT he was a SPIRIT, a ghost, a spook. So I'm asking, did he
look like a spirit? Did he look like a ghost? Did he look like a
spook? The Christian says "No". Then I said, why should they think
the man is a spirit when he didn't look like one? So he gets
puzzled. This is my experience, with the most learned men of
Christianity, they get puzzled. Why would they think the man is a
spirit, when he doesn't look like a spirit? I said, the reason is
that the disciples of Jesus they had heard from hearsay, people were
talking, that the master was hanged on the cross. They had heard
from hearsay, people were talking, that he had given up the ghost,
in other words his spirit had come out, he had died. They had heard
from hearsay what people were talking, that he is now dead and
buried for 3 days...a man with such a reputation, you expect that
man to be stinking in his grave after 3 days, because all the
knowledge of the disciples was from hearsay. Because Mark 14:50, he
says, that at the most critical juncture in the life of Jesus, "all"
his disciples "forsook him and fled". "All" his disciples, they
"forsook him and fled", which means they were not eyewitnesses or
earwitnesses to the happenings. Their knowledge was from hearsay. So
on hearsay evidence if you know about a man who is dead and buried,
and when you see such a person, seemingly, that person, naturally
you are terrified, because you are thinking that man is a spook, a
ghost.
So Jesus Christ, wanting to assure them, that he is not what they
are thinking. He says, and I'm quoting, he says (Luke 24:39) "behold
my hands and my feet" look, have a look, at my hands and my feet,
(Luke 24:39) "that it is I myself", I am the same fellow, man,
what's wrong with you, what are you afraid of me for, he says (Luke
24:39) "handle me, and see", (Luke 24:39) "handle me, and see; for a
spirit has no flesh and bones, as you see me have". "a spirit" means
"any spirit". This is an axiomatic truth. You don't have to
prove this to the Jews, to the Atheists, to the Agnostics, it's an
axiomatic truth, universally accepted, that a spirit will not have
flesh and bones. Then why is Jesus at pains to tell them so? A fact
well known and accepted. The reason is, because the disciples of
Jesus were thinking, the man has come back from the dead, he was
resurrected, he was spiritualized. That is the reason, so he is
telling them, I am not what you are thinking. I am not a spirit, I
am not a ghost, I am not a spook. And they handle him, and they
(Luke 24:41) "believed not for joy", means they were overjoyed,
(Luke 24:41) "and wondered", what happened man? We thought the man
was dead and buried. But we can see, he's demonstrating that he is
himself, flesh and blood. And they (Luke 24:41) "believed not for
joy, and wondered", so Jesus wants to assure them further, he says
(Luke 24:41) "Have you here any meat?" Something to eat. (Luke
24:42-43) "and they gave him a piece of broiled fish, and a
honeycomb, and he took it" and he ATE. (Luke 24:43) "in their very
sight", to prove what? That he is a ghost? That he is a spook? That
he is a spirit? No, to prove that he is himself, and he is not
resurrected.
Because the resurrected bodies get spiritualized.
Who says so? I say, Paul. Who says so? I say, Jesus. Who says so? I
say, each and every one of you. Each and every one of you will admit
that the resurrected bodies won't be this. Flesh and blood, flesh
and bones, it will be spiritualized. But the greatest testifier of
the scriptures, Paul, of Christianity, Paul, in his book of
Corinthians, 1st Cor 15 he says, talking about the resurrection of
Christ, the whole chapter, in some bibles is headed "the
resurrection of Christ". The chapter itself is addressed "the
resurrection of Christ". In verse 3, he says, (1 Cor 15:3) "Christ
died for our sins according to the scriptures", verse 4 (1 Cor 15:4)
"and he was raised again from the dead according to the scriptures".
The "scriptures" that he's talking about is not Matthew, Mark, Luke
and John, because they were not written. His is about 56 (years)
after Christ, and the others goes to about 60, according to
Christian scholars. So, he is not referring to Matthew, Mark, Luke
and John, he was...you know, going through them, and found out what
was what, no. He's speaking from his knowledge of the Old Testament.
Verse 14 he says:
(1 Cor 15:14) "if Christ is not risen (from the dead)... our
preaching is vain... your faith is vain".
In other words, Christianity has nothing to offer mankind, you have
nothing to offer. And I can assure you that in my country, you
Christian missionary, when he comes to our homes, he does not come
to tell us about hygiene, personal hygiene, I mean. We Muslims are
the most hygienic people on earth. I will not go into details, this
is not the occasion, the most hygienic people on earth. At question
time you may ask, and I will demonstrate to you, I'll explain to
you. We are the most hospitable people on earth. In ethics and in
morality, you can't point a finger at us, that "we are better than
you". No group of ... religious group in my country can show a
candle to us, that "we are better than you". The only thing he can
tell us is, that "you have no salvation", "because salvation only
comes through the blood of the lord Jesus", "which you do not
accept" that's the only thing he has to tell us. So, Paul says, that
if this (resurrection) didn't happen, then your preaching is vain,
useless, worthless. And your faith is also useless, worthless. As
the American would put it, it's all garbage. "Your religion is
garbage, if you didn't have this (resurrection)", this is the only
sales point that you have. Then in verse 35, he says
(1 Cor 15:35) someone may rationally ask, how do the dead rise
again? and with what kind of body will they come?
He poses this question, not seeking information from us, but it's a
rhetorical question, and he himself answers it in verse 42. He says
there (1 Cor 15:43) that that which is "sown", means buried, "is
sown in weakness; it is raised in power"
(1 Cor 15:42) "it is sown in corruption; it is raised in glory",
(1 Cor 15:44) "it is sown" means buried "a physical body; it is
raised a spiritual body".
Once you die, this body, this physical body, is put into the dust,
dust with dust, from dust thou art, and to dust thou shall return,
finished. But when you are resurrected, it is not the dust, it will
be a spiritualized body, according to saint Paul. And on that
premise, the whole of his 14 books in the New Testament are written.
More than half of the New Testament was written by Paul, 14 out of
the 27 books, and the whole premise of his argument is that Christ
was risen from the dead, resurrected, spiritually. A spiritual body.
When people say spiritual body, they think, well
"body", what is "body", look at the dictionary, and then you say
look, "body" has mass, volume, dimensions, so he says, "you see,
there was a body". I said, this is an apparition, when you see
an apparition, what is an apparition, it appears to us in the form
of a body. The ghost you see, what do you see, you see something,
that appears to be a human kind. But we know, that thing is
something you can't grapple with, you can't grasp it, you can't
pocket it. You see the filmmakers, your American filmmakers in
Hollywood, they made these things something that we can imagine far
more easily. Again and again, they conjure up, you know, somebody
coming out through a keyhole, steam comes out and then you find it
materialize into a man. The invisible man. Or Sabu, you know, he
played "The Thief of Baghdad", in which we see that he picks up a
bottle on the seashore, and he opens the bottle, and something comes
out like smoke, and it materializes into a genie. But that genie has
a form, it has a body, but it is an invisible, an imperceptible
body, something that you can't grapple with, but you say a body, you
see a body. If it's only thin air, you see nothing. It might be
there, but you see nothing. So it materializes, so we say it appears
to us in the form of a body.
So, "spiritual body" says saint Paul. That's his
understanding of the resurrection. Everybody, anybody, when you are
resurrected, you will be spiritualized. And he was only confirming
what Jesus had said in the Gospel of Saint Luke, according to the
records, chapter 20, In chapter 20 of Luke, we read there that the
Jews, his own people, they come to him. They were always coming to
him with poses and riddles, trying to trip this man of God. Now they
come to him, and they say "Master", in the Hebrew language "Rabbi",
respected / learned man, priest, bishop, whatever, Rabbi, there was
a woman among us, and that woman, according to a Jewish practice had
7 husbands. See, there was a Jewish custom that if one brother died,
and if he left no offspring, then the 2nd brother takes her to wife,
and when he fails (to have offspring) and dies, the 3rd fellow takes
her to wife, and when he fails and dies, the 4th and the 5th and the
6th and the 7th. Seven guys had this one woman. One after another.
But there was no problem, because it was all one by one. So they're
asking Jesus now, that at the resurrection, which guy is going to
have her, because they all had her here. See, if you have her here,
you want to have her on the other side. This is natural. Suppose you
and your wife are resurrected and you see her on the other side,
meet, you say darling, sweetheart, come sweetie, this is ... this is
natural, If you recognize your wife, you know, on the other side, he
says, well you know, the closeness that you have established on this
earth, for 5 years for 50 years, you have been together, as husband
and wife. Now, you want to establish, or continue the same
relationship on the other side. But at the resurrection, since
everybody is resurrected instantaneously, you know, simultaneously,
(at the) same time, then the 7 brothers waking up (at) one time, and
they see this woman. Then everybody will be going after her, you
see, he says "this is mine, I had her", the other guy says "this is
mine, I had her", everybody had her, and everybody will be fighting
over this one woman. As wife. And there will be war in heaven
between the 7 brothers, "get away, this is mine, this is
mine"..."now, where (did) you come from" he says "I had her" because
they won't remember the other guys having her before them, you see.
So they want to know from Jesus which guy is going to have her on
the other side, because they all had her here.
In answer to that, Jesus says, he says (Luke 20:36) "neither shall
they die any more", meaning that once they are resurrected, they
will be immortalized. (Luke 20:36) "Neither shall they die any
more". They will be immortalized. In other words, the things that
kill a person, lack of food, shelter, clothing, rest, these things
will not be necessary on the other side. Once you die, you do not
die a 2nd time. No more death, immortalized. This is a physical body
which has got its physical needs: food, shelter, clothing, sex,
rest. That body, no food, no shelter, no clothing, no sex, no rest,
of the type that we know. It will be of some kind, other kind,
spiritual kind, but not this kind. So he says (Luke 20:36) "Neither
shall they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels". In
other words, they will be angelized. They will have spiritual
bodies, like angels. What kind of bodies (do) they have? Not this.
(Luke 20:36) "For they are equal unto the angels", they will be
angelized. They will be spiritualized. They will have spiritual
bodies. They will be spirits. (Luke 20:36) "For they are equal unto
the angels; and the children of God" for SUCH are "the children of
the resurrection". SUCH. Spirits, they will be "such". Spirits. Paul
says spirits, Jesus says spirits. I wonder if there is a single
person here who takes exception to that, he says it will be this
body? Is there one here? In the Royal Albert Hall in front of some
6,000 people in London, I posed the question, and there was not a
single Muslim or Christian who could take exception to these
axiomatic truths, that resurrection at that time your bodies will be
spiritualized. Paul says so, Jesus says so, I say so, and you say
so.
So he (Jesus) says (Luke 24:39) "a spirit has no
flesh and bones" in other words, I am not what you are thinking. You
are thinking that I have come back from the dead, that is not so, I
am not resurrected. And yet the whole Christian world, they say that
he died and he was resurrected. The man says, I am not what you are
thinking, and eating broiled fish and honeycomb. These are the needs
of this physical body. But somehow, you see, people get programmed.
I was talking about people getting "brainwashed" at the Berkeley
University in 1977, I was talking to the my American people, some
teachers and students, and I said "You people are brainwashed". So
one professor stood up, he says "I beg your pardon, we are
programmed". I say, right, "programmed" not "brainwashed", so we all
get programmed. See, from childhood. Because our salvation depends
on this, that we must believe that Christ died and was resurrected.
But resurrection is spiritual, and we find that everything about
Jesus, after...his post-crucifixion events, not once does he appear
to be a spirit.
He is ever in hiding. He is ever in hiding. He never came out into
the open. He never went to the temple of Jerusalem. He had given the
Jews a sign. He never went to fulfill that sign. "Sign" means a
miracle. To say, look "you remember what I told you, here I am, do
your worst". But he didn't dare do anything, he didn't dare to go to
meet these people, the Jews, his own people. He had given them a
sign. In Matthew 12:38-40, we read there... again the same type of
confrontation. The Jews come along, and they said "master" again in
the Hebrew language "Rabbi" (Matt 12:38) "we would have a sign of
thee". In other words, we want you to show us a miracle to convince
us that you are above the ordinary, you are the man we are waiting
for "the Messiah". Do something like flying in the air, like a bird.
Walk on the water. Give life to the dead, do something man. Then we
know that you are above the ordinary. So that we can believe that
you are our Messiah.
In response to that, Jesus says to his people, he
said (Matt 12:39) "an evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a
sign". That's a horrible nation, horrible people, you looking for
miracles, tricks, it's tricks. To convince you that I am a genuine
man of God, you want me to show you some tricks, magic. He said
(Matt 12:39) "an evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a
sign" but "there shall no sign be given unto it". No sign, no
miracle. Except (Matt 12:39) "the sign of the Prophet Jonah". Only
one, none but one. (Matt 12:40) "For as Jonah was three days and
three nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the son of man"
referring to himself "be three days and three nights in the belly of
the earth". This is the only sign I am prepared to give you. The
only miracle I'm prepared to concede to, is this. He didn't say, you
know, blind Bartimaeus, I healed him. You know, that woman with
issues, bleeding profusely for years, she touched me and she got
healed. You know, I brought up Lazarus back from the dead. You know,
that girl, she had died and I brought her back. You know, that fig
tree, I destroyed it from its very roots. You know, I killed those
2000 pigs. You know, I turned water into wine. Nothing, nothing of
the kind. He never showed any of these things, says "look, look
back, look back man, at what I have done so far"...um. The only sign
I'm prepared to give you, is the sign of Jonah. What happened to
Jonah is going to happen to me. His miracle is my miracle.
And I have been asking these Missionaries of Christendom, these hot
gospellers, these bible thumpers, Evangelists, Preachers, I said
now, what was that sign? He said my sign is the sign of Jonah, I
said what was that sign? And believe me, in 40 years, no Christian
worth the name has ever come forth to tell me what was that sign. I
say, did he fulfill it, he says, yes. I said, what... how?
Speechless. Of course, our Dr. Robert Douglas may be better
prepared, he might know all these things beforehand, he is a
missionary, you know, in the Middle East among the Muslims he has
been, and he's somebody big in the Zwimmer Institute. He might have
the answer. But, I will give it to you, in case he fails, so I might
as well give it to you beforehand. What was the sign, I said, look,
to get the sign... to know what was the sign of Jonah, you have to
go to the book of Jonah in the Bible. And that Book of Jonah is 1
page. This is the page. Four short chapters, 1 page. So if you go to
the book of Jonah, it won't take you 2 minutes. It won't take you 2
minutes to read this book. This whole book. It won't take you 2
minutes. So we read there that Jonah was sent to the Ninevites. God
Almighty commands him, go to Nineveh, and warn the people that they
must repent, and in sackcloth and in ashes, humble themselves before
the Lord, otherwise, I will destroy the people. Jonah, a prophet of
God, but he is human, he feels despondent, he says, these
materialistic people, they will not harken to the message, they will
make a mockery out of me, as Jesus described them, a wicked and
adulterous generation, this wicked and adulterous generation of
Jonah's time, they're going to make a mockery of him. So he says,
instead of going to Nineveh to warn the people, he goes to Joppa and
takes a boat and is running away, to Tarshish. You don't have to
remember the names. Instead of going to one direction, he goes in
the opposite direction, and is running away. At sea, there is a
storm. And according to the superstitions of these people, whosoever
runs away from his master's command, deserts his duty, calls for
such punishment. So they began to question, who can be responsible
for this havoc, because the storm is not abiding. It is not
subsiding. So Jonah, he realizes that he is the guilty person.
Because actually, he is running away from his master's command. God
tells him to go to Nineveh, and he's going to Joppa. As a soldier of
God, he had no right to do things presumptuously. So he makes a
manly come-back. He said, I am the guilty man, and it is expedient
that you take me and you throw me into the sea. And God will be
satisfied, because actually he is after my blood, not you. And
because of me, you innocent people will die. It's better for you
that you throw me into the sea. One man perish, save the nation.
They said, no, you are such a nice man, holy man, maybe praying
continuously. He said, we have a system of our own. Our own system
to find out right from wrong. And that system, is a system, what is
called "casting of lots". Like head or tail. We do "head or tail",
we did it just now, head or tail. So they had a system of casting
lots like head or tail. And according to that system, of tossing the
coin, it came to the turn of Jonah, that Jonah was the guilty man,
so they took him and they threw him overboard. And the storm
subsided. Perhaps it was a coincidence, but the storm subsided.
Now, I'm asking the question, that when they threw
Jonah overboard, was he dead or was he alive? But before you answer,
I don't want to get the wrong answer. Because once you give the
wrong answer, your going to stick by it. This is human nature. You
know, once you make a wrong statement, you don't like to admit your
mistake. So I want to help you before you open your mouth. You don't
mind. I said, you see, Jonah had volunteered. He had volunteered. He
says throw me overboard. And a man when he ... volunteers, you don't
have to strangle him before throwing. You agree, he says, throw me.
You don't have to kill him, you don't have to break his arm or limb,
you don't have to spear him. Am I right? The man says, throw me. So
when they threw him overboard, was he dead or was he alive? I want
to hear from you all. And please, I want to hear, that it can also
be recorded on our tapes, please. Was he dead or was he alive when
they threw him overboard? What? ALIVE. You got the right answer. But
you get no prize for that. It was too simple. As you see, it's very
simple. The Jews say he was alive, the Christians say he was alive,
the Muslims say he was alive, no prize. The storm subsides, and a
fish comes and gobbles him up. Dead or alive? Alive. Right. From the
fish's belly, he prays to God for help, according to the Book of
Jonah. I am asking, do dead men pray? Dead people, do they pray? No.
So, he was? Alive. A little louder please. Alive.
(heckler - inaudible)
(to heckler) You will be given the opportunity at question time,
whoever you are, you will be given the opportunity at question time
to ask questions. Be man enough, be Christian enough to please keep
your mouth shut for the moment.
Three days and three nights, the fish takes him round the ocean.
Dead or alive? Alive. Don't be afraid. Don't get terrified. On the
third day, the fish vomits him on the seashore. Dead or alive?
Alive. Look, whether you are a Hindu, or a Christian, or a Jew, or a
Muslim, if you read this record, and you had sound common sense, you
will say, alive, alive, alive, alive. And it's a miracle. It's a
miracle of miracles. When you throw a man into a raging sea, he
ought to die. If he died, no miracle. Because we expect him to die.
A fish comes and gobbles a man, he ought to die. If he died, no
miracle. If he didn't die, it's a miracle. Heat and suffocation in
the belly of the whale, the man ought to die, 3 days and 3 nights.
He ought to die, if he died, no miracle. No "mujiza" (miracle). No
sign. If he didn't die, it's a miracle. So, it's a miracle, of a
miracle, of a miracle, an outstanding miracle in the Bible. 3 times
over. It's a miracle from every point of view.
So Jesus says, (Matt 12:40) "For as Jonah was three days and three
nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the son of man be three
days and three nights in the belly of the earth". As Jonah was, so
shall the son of man be. I'm asking, how was Jonah for 3 days and 3
nights in the belly of the whale? Dead or Alive? Alive. I'm asking,
again, how was Jesus in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights? Dead or
Alive? I beg your pardon? No, according to Christendom? Dead! Ask
the Professor, ask the Doctor. He says he was dead for 3 days and 3
nights. Jonah was alive for 3 days and 3 nights, Jesus was dead for
3 days and 3 nights. Any Christian worth the name, he will tell you
that, any Christian, you don't have to be a DD, and you don't have
to be a theologian, or a preacher or an evangelist, hearing voices
from heaven, you need nothing. Jonah is alive, the Christian says
Jesus was dead. I am asking, in your language, you English speaking
peoples, you Americans who speak English, the Englishman who speaks
English, I speak English. I speak English as my mother tongue. See
this is the nearest, because psychologists say that your mother
tongue is the language in which you dream and the language in which
you swear. And I dream in English and I swear in English. So, from
that angle I am also an "English" man. See, I am an English speaking
person, though my mother tongue is Gujrati, I speak Urdu, I speak
half a dozen different languages, but my mother tongue is English,
according to the psychologists. So, I am asking, in your language,
though, I am sure all of you understand English, otherwise you
wouldn't be here. I said, in your language, you see, is this "like"
Jonah or "unlike" Jonah? Jesus says (Matt 12:40) "for AS Jonah was",
LIKE Jonah...Jonah was alive, Jesus was dead, is that in your
language "like" Jonah, or "unlike" Jonah? In your language. Unlike.
So, I am asking now, is Jesus speaking the truth, or are you
speaking the truth? Is Jesus a liar, or you are a liar? Either.
Look, you both can't be right. He says I'll be like Jonah, and your
telling me he's not like Jonah. So he failed, or he lied, or you are
lying. Yes, you have to admit that you have ... you have
misunderstood the whole thing. You reading this in your own
language, simple basic English. King's English, or Queen's English.
This language I'm talking, (Matt 12:40) "for AS Jonah was ... so
shall the son of man be". Like Jonah, not unlike Jonah.
The very learned person, he says, "No, no, no, no
Mr. Deedat. You see, Jesus is here emphasizing the time factor" I
say there is nothing miraculous about a time factor. Whether a man
is, you know, dead, I mean unconscious, or ... gone into hibernation
for 3 minutes, 3 days, 3 hours, 3 years, that is not a miracle. The
miracle is that you expect a man to die and he doesn't die. That is
a miracle. But "a drowning man clutches at straws". You see, he
says, "No, no, no Mr. Deedet. You see it is the time factor that
Jesus was emphasizing" "Can't you see," he said "for as Jonah was
THREE days and THREE nights... "so shall the son of man be THREE
days and THREE nights. He repeats the word 'three' four times, so it
is the time factor ... that he was emphasizing, not whether dead or
alive"
So I am asking... Look, did he fulfill that? The
time factor, did he fulfill that? He says "Yes." I said, look,
you're going to make another split just now. You're going to fall
again. You have made one "faux pas", you have made one mistake, you
have accused Jesus of lying he said I'll be like Jonah, you say he
was unlike Jonah, he didn't fulfill it, and you are going to make a
2nd mistake just now. But no, no, no, "a drowning man clutches at
straws" and you will find drowning women will do the same. Same. So
I said, now, look, when was he crucified? When was Jesus crucified?
And Christendom as a whole, they give you the answer "Good Friday".
Have you heard of Good Friday, do you have Good Friday in your
country here? We have it in South Africa. They call it in Afrikaans
"Goeie Vrydag" see, Good Friday. In South Africa, we celebrate Good
Friday. Swaziland, Basutu, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Britain, France,
Germany, Italy, name them, name them, every Christian nation on
Earth commemorates Good Friday. What makes "Good Friday" good? They
say "Christ died for our sins". Is that what makes it good? He said
"Yes". So it was on a Good Friday? He said "Yes". I said OK, when
was he crucified, morning or afternoon? When? Well, some say
morning, some say afternoon, I say I won't argue. Whatever you say,
I accept. How long was he on the cross? Some say 3 hours, some say 6
hours. I say I won't argue with you. I won't argue with you, you say
3, I accept, if you say 6, I accept. I said, you know, the Jews were
in a hurry, to put him up on the cross. That's the reading of the
scriptures. Why were they in a hurry? Because they were afraid of
the common people. Jesus was a hero to the common people. He had
healed the blind, the lepers, he had given life back to the dead, on
one occasion, he fed 5000 people with a few pieces of fish and a few
pieces of bread, on another occasion, another 3000 people with a few
pieces of fish and a few pieces of bread. A man with such a
reputation, the people love the man. And if his life was endangered,
there might be a revolt, a riot. So, quickly, quickly, quickly
apprehend the man, and get rid of him. So they grabbed him, and they
take him, had a midnight trial, which doesn't happen in Jewry.
Midnight trial. Early in the morning, they take him to Pilate. And
as if Pilate had nothing else to do, he was waiting. He receives
them, and Pilate says, look, this is not my kettle of fish, take him
to Herod. They take him to Herod. Herod had nothing to do, he was
also waiting. Nothing to do, these royal people, nothing to do,
they're just waiting. And he says, look, he says, take him back to
Pilate. They take him back to Pilate. Pilate is still waiting. All
these things happen on the double, only these things happen in
films. In your Hollywood, in real life it doesn't happen (so fast),
but whatever you tell me, I said I accept. No arguments. So,
finally, they get him on the cross, we are told, about 3 o'clock in
the afternoon. And he's there for about 3 hours, according to the
Christians. As much as the Jews were in a hurry to put him up, queer
people, they were also in a hurry to bring him down. You know why?
Amazing, they were in a hurry to put him up, now they are in a hurry
to bring him down, from the cross. You know why? Because of the
Sabbath - Saturday - Because they were told in the book of
Deutronomy (Deut 21:22-23) that they must see to it that nobody is
hanging on the tree on the Sabbath day (Deut 21:23) "that thy land
be not defiled , which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an
inheritance" So for that, you know, it was a filthy, dirty
sacrilegious thing for anybody to be hanging on the cross on -
Saturday - Sabbath Day And Sabbath begins at 6 o'clock on Friday.
According to the Muslims, the Jews, our day begins at sunset. Day
changes. The Jews, at sunset, the Muslims, at sunset. At sunset, we
see the moon, we start fasting. At the end of the month, we see the
moon, we stop fasting. That's how the Jews count their days, and the
Muslims count their days. So Sabbath starts on Friday, 6 o'clock. So
before that, they want to bring the body down. So hurry, hurry,
hurry, and they managed to bring the body down, without breaking the
legs, there is also a prophecy being fulfilled in that, they brought
him down. And, they gave him a burial wash, which takes about an
hour, hour and a half. The Jewish ... Jewish burial bath - Ghusl (in
Arabic). Then they put 100 pounds of medicants around him. And they
put a shroud around him. And they put him into the sepulcher. By
now, it's already evening. There is no other way. If this is what
you are telling me, the story is correct, then by the time they put
him into the grave, and did these things, it's already evening. So,
Friday night, he is supposed to be in the grave. Watch my fingers.
Friday night, he is supposed to be in the grave. Saturday day, he is
still supposed to be in the grave. You see, I am dividing the day
into day and night. Because Jesus did the same, he said (Matt 12:40)
"for as Jonah was three days and three nights", the day into day and
night, day and night, day and night ... I say, Friday night,
Saturday day, Saturday night, Sunday morning, the first day of the
week, Mary Magdalene goes to the tomb (BEFORE SUNRISE Mark 16:2)
That's what the Bible says. (BEFORE SUNRISE Mark 16:2) And the tomb
was empty. I said, "supposed", "supposed", "supposed", you know why?
Because he could have come out Friday night. But because the Bible
doesn't say that, I don't say that. But he could have come out
Friday night. So I am asking, how many days and how many nights. Can
you see my fingers? You people, how many? What "three"? Two
nights, and a day. You see, two nights and a day. I am asking, is it
the same as what Jesus said? (Matt 12:40) "for as Jonah was three
days and three nights...so shall the son of man be three days and
three nights", I am asking, look at this, is it the same? Is it the
same? Unless you are blind. Look at this. So he failed again. There
is no mathematician on Earth, even your Einstein, he can't help you
here.
Yes, you have to follow Herbert Armstrong. You have
to listen to Herbert Armstrong. (to heckler) Is this how you
Americans behave? In a religious meeting? I said, you have to go and
follow Herbert Armstrong. He is dead now, but his hierarchy
continues "The Plain Truth", the magazine, they are publishing 8
million and 80,000 a month, free distribution. Go and get it, and
they will tell you that Jesus Christ was not crucified on a Good
Friday. They say it was a Good Wednesday. Do you know that? It's a
new trend. And 8 million a month they are pushing out, 8 million.
He's going to brainwash the whole of Christendom. Sooner or later,
you will find everybody is talking about a Good Wednesday, a Good
Wednesday, a Good Wednesday, and I'm telling my people in South
Africa, I say look, if our government, if they ever change Good
Friday to Good Wednesday, we are going to protest, we will march on
Parliament House. You know why? Because Good Friday is a good day
for the Muslims too. You know why? Because our people, our workers,
factories, all over, we are able to go to the mosque on Fridays.
Gather together, and we have the biggest gatherings on Good Friday,
in our Masjids. And we have 3 days holiday. Friday, Saturday,
Sunday. Once it's Good Wednesday, you'll have only one day holiday.
So, I said we will march onto Parliament House, and I said you my
brothers and sisters, are you prepared...will you be prepared to
follow me, and 100% says we'll follow you. March onto Parliament
House. We'll never allow Good Wednesday to come about, because it
won't suit us. But the Christians, you are in a conflict. The mighty
messenger of God, according to you, he fails a 2nd time in
fulfilling one prophesy.
I said, look, this man, you say he came to die for
the sins of the world. Look at it, at that eventful...on the verge
of that Good Friday, on the Thursday. He takes his disciples to that
upper room. And they're having the supper, and at the supper table
he is telling them, he says, you remember when I sent you out on
your mission of preaching and healing, (Luke 22:35) I told you that
you must carry nothing with you, no papers, no shoes, no staff, no
stick (Luke 22:35) Did you lack anything? (Luke 22:35) They said,
no, we lacked nothing. But he says (Luke 22:36) but now I tell you,
those of you who have no swords must sell your garments and buy
them. Swords, swords. You know, to chop off people's heads. Swords,
he is telling them to buy swords. So one of them said (Luke 22:38)
master, we have 2 already. So he says this is enough. Why should 2
swords be enough? What are you going to do with swords? Pearing
apples, bananas, what do you do with swords? Chop off people's
heads. And he's telling you, in the Gospel of Saint Luke, chapter 19
verse 27: (Luke 19:27 in a parable) he said for "those mine enemies
which would not that I should reign over them" I will become their
ruler, their king, he says (Luke 19:27 in a parable) bring them
hither and "slay them before me". With what, with your fingers? What
do you slay them with? (Luke 19:27 in a parable) bring them hither
and "slay them before me", cut their throats. (in a parable) If
those of you who are not prepared to accept me as your king, bring
them and kill them. So now he's telling them (to) arm themselves,
and they arm themselves, to the limit. And he takes them to the
garden of Gethsemane. I said, what for? To pray? I said, couldn't he
have prayed in that upper room? Couldn't he have gone to the temple
of Jerusalem, a stone's throw from where he was? Couldn't he have
done that? Why Gethsemane? I said, look, there is a strategy
involved, when he takes his disciples to Gethsemane, in the middle
of the night, not for prayer, he puts 8 men at the gate. He says,
(Matt 26:38) "tarry ye here and watch with me" and he takes with him
Peter and the 2 sons of Zebedee, those "fighting Irishmen" of the
time. Peter "the rock", and the sons of Zebedee, they're called
"sons of thunder", this is the title given to them "fighting
Irishmen" of their time, among the Jews, he takes them further into
the garden, and he makes an inner line of defense. And he says,
(Matt 26:38) sit ye here and watch with me. Watch what? It means
keep guard.
(Matt 26:39) "And he went a little further, and fell
on his face, and prayed (to God) (Matt 26:39) "saying, O my Father,
if it be possible, let this cup pass from me" meaning remove the
difficulty from me but (Matt 26:39) "not as I will, but as thou
wilt". I want you, oh my lord, I want you to save me, but in the end
I put myself at your disposal (Luke 22:44) "And being in an
agony, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was as if it were
great drops of blood falling down to the ground." What a choice. God
Almighty has made a choice. There was a contract between
father and son, before the worlds began, says the Christian. Before
the worlds began, there was a contract between father and son. It
says, My son, I will send you into the world, in the year 4000 after
Adam. And I want you to die for the sins of mankind. It looks like
Jesus didn't know anything about it.
Look (at) how he's behaving. 8 at the gate. Shh, you
tarry here. You 3 come, follow me, shh. You sit here. Is this how
you prepare for suicide? Is this how you prepare for sacrifice? A
willing sacrifice? You tell me. If you have ever served in the army,
at any time, or been with the scouts, boy scouts or girl scouts, you
will be able to confirm that when you do things like that, you are
preparing, it's a strategy of preparation, not for death, but for
protection. And swords? If the Jews were to come there, he says I
know my people he says, the spirit that the disciples were showing,
they were beating their breast in that upper room saying (Matt
26:35) master, we are prepared to go to prison for you, master, we
are prepared to die for you. Such people with sticks and stones, and
2 swords, they would have knocked holes into the Jews. But the Jews
were cleverer than what he thought. They bring Roman soldiers with
them. The situation changes. Against trained men, what can you do?
They'll be cut to pieces your disciples, so Jesus says, (Matt 26:52)
"put down your sword, because he who lives by the sword, shall die
by the sword" Didn't he know this before? He knew, but circumstance
changes, and the man changes. He's a master strategist, but he had
not come to die, and he had not died, as such he was neither killed
nor crucified. You see, all his actions, post "crucifixion" actions,
supposed to be crucified, after, every action, every move that he
makes, the way he behaves, is that of a man who has escaped death by
the skin of his teeth, not the one who has been resurrected.
DEEDAT CONTINUATION
Mr. Chairman, and brethren. You know, Dr. Douglas has pulled so many
red herrings before me, I don't know which one to follow. You see,
he has brought up things absolutely irrelevant to the debate. The
authenticity of the scriptures, which was not in question tonight. I
had a debate on that subject with brother Jimmy Swaggart, 1 or 2
hour session, debate and Q&A. Now, he's pulling that red herring
before me, do I pursue that? About the variations in the Quran,
shall I pursue that? Or about the different "versions", as compared
to the "translations" of the Quran, shall I pursue that? In other
words, this 10 minutes, all will be wasted if I start pursuing these
red herrings that he has thrown, pulling wool over our eyes.
You see, he makes statements, contradictory
statements. He says that Jesus was alive in the tomb. For 3 days and
3 nights, he was alive. At the same time, now he said on the 3rd
day, he was resurrected. He's a unique person in my experience. I
have come across hundreds of learned Christians. Nobody ever told me
that Jesus was alive, "He was dead" they say, on the cross, and for
3 days and 3 nights, he was dead in the tomb, and on the 3rd day he
was resurrected. But his idea is, no, that he was alive. So, he's
running with the ... hound "Running with the hare and hunting with
the hound"
He has been trying to give us... he says, "spiritual
has so many meanings" I agree. "Spirit" in the Bible does not mean
the same thing every time. When you talk about "the spirit", they
say it's the Holy Ghost. That I have "the Spirit of God" they mean
they have "the Holy Ghost" Then the Bible speaks about 7 Spirits of
God that went down into the world. No Christian said there were 7
Holy Ghosts. We are told in the Gospel of Saint John, that (John
3:6) he that is born of spirit is spirit, and he that is born of the
flesh is flesh. We know it doesn't mean what Jesus was talking
about, these are different things on different levels, and they have
different meanings. But at the same time, why doesn't brother
Douglas tell you that the word "dead" and "died" also have a dozen
different meanings in the Bible. That dead doesn't mean dead, in the
sense that the man, his soul has departed from the body. You see,
sir, in the 1st book of the Bible, Genesis, God Almighty warns Adam.
He says (Gen 2:17) this fruit of this certain tree, thou shalt not
eat, (Gen 2:17) "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt
surely die". And yet Adam lived for 930 years. So... the learned men
of Christendom, they have a nice way out: He says, "No, this was
spiritual death." "Spiritually he had died, but physically he lived
for 930 years." And I agree with them. Why not, the same
explanation, be given in the case of Jesus? You speak about the
prodigal son, in your preachings to your congregations, "prodigal
son". (Luke 15:11-13) The one who had asked for his "portion of
goods" from the father and had gone to a foreign land. Met bad
company. In the mire, in the gutter, and there he makes up his mind
to return. And he returns. And the father, representing God, he sees
this prodigal returning, and he says: (Luke 15:24) that "this my son
was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found". Why don't
you tell us that, look, this "dead" doesn't mean dead, it was
separation from the father. Explain to them, that it's separation,
it's not death, because the child, the son had never died, Adam had
never died for 930 years. So it's separation, separation,
separation, so "death" means separation. Also... why won't you now
translate or explain that this "death" of Jesus was also a
separation from God, because you read in your own scriptures, no use
bringing the Quran into the picture, because we are talking about
your records. Explain your records as they are in your own language.
You see, Jesus on the cross is supposed to have cried out, with a
loud voice, (Mat 27:46) "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" (Mark 15:34 "Eloi")
(Mat 27:46 & Mark 15:34) which means "My God, my God, why hast thou
forsaken me?" What is this "forsaken"? Adam was forsaken by God, you
call it "death". The son, prodigal, had departed from his father,
separated from the father, it was "death". Jesus Christ, according
to his own admission, he's separated from God, he's "dead". That is
spiritual death. But the death that you are talking about (ie,
resurrection), he must die physically. He must give his life that
his soul departs from his body, that is death.
And if that death took place, then you say for 3
days he was alive. And this miracle that Jesus is talking about, the
miracle (of Jonah), of Jonah, miracle, is not being entombed, as you
say, for 3 days and 3 nights. What's miraculous about that? You put
a man in a cave, in a tomb for 3 days and 3 nights, what's
miraculous about that? If you put him for 3 weeks, what is
miraculous about that? The miracle is that you expect a man to die,
and if he doesn't die, it's a miracle. And according to that, the
whole of Christendom says that "Jesus was dead for 3 days and 3
nights, Jonah was alive for 3 days and 3 nights," and as such he
didn't fulfill the prophecies. "Crucified"? He says
now, what does the word "crucified" mean? Crucified means to kill.
To kill by hanging or impaling on the cross. If a person is put onto
a cross, for example, numerous cases we have records here, from our
newspapers, Philipinos, it says: "13 Philipinos had themselves
'crucified' imitating Christ". 13 Philipinos. Dozens of Philipinos,
every Easter, they get "crucified" in the Philipines. Dozens. I'm
sure you read these records. But what is actually taking place is:
that the person is taken to the cross, he is hanged, he is nailed,
and he is brought down, and he's alive, and he walks away smoking
(a) cigarette. Now, in your language, sir, there is not a word,
there is not a verb, in your language, to describe that. That the
man was put on the cross? what is that, crufied? It says "crucified"
here, but the man is alive. So what happened, was he crucified? 20
years later, somebody shoots him and he dies, or he meets a motorcar
accident and he dies. How would you say was his end? Crucified, or
hanged, or shot, or drowned? How? You have no word in your language.
The deficiency is in your language, to explain the situation, that
if the man was put on the cross, and had he not died, what would you
call that? A man is taken to the gallows, a noose is put around his
neck, and the rope is pulled, but before he expires, they cut the
rope, and he is reprieved, 10 years later, 15 years later, the man
dies a natural death, was he hanged? I want you to tell me, not
un-hanged, what happened to him, in your language, you haven't got a
word. In your language, you have no words to describe situations
like that. You know, a verb, to tell you what happened. So, you
can't say he was hanged, you can't say he was crucified, but yet,
the way they do that now is to put that in inverted commas " ... ".
You see, in other words, that's what people say, that he "died".
That he "died", you see, he was "crucified", in inverted commas. I
have now coined a word... to save Christendom their misery, of not
having a word, and that word is "crucifiction". CRUCI FICTION, in
other words, it's just an act, taking place. The man is not actually
dying, so he is not "crucified", in inverted commas, rather, that
the person was crucificted, FICTED, as in like a fiction.
Crucificted.
So, I don't know, what issues, now if I give you
briefly, I said, look, there are so many reasons that we say Christ
was not crucified, according to your scriptures. In the book of
Acts, chapter 1, verse 3: it reads: and he gave, after his alleged
crucifixion, (Acts 1:3) he (Jesus) "gave many convincing
proofs that he was alive". ALIVE. (Acts 1:3) he (Jesus) gave
"convincing proofs that he was alive". Mary Magdalene, she goes and
testifies to the other disciples (Luke 24:23) that "he was alive"
(Luke 24:11) "and they believed them not". Alive, ALIVE, not
resurrected. The word there is "alive" (Acts 1:3), it is again
"alive" (Luke 24:23). Then the other 2 from Emmaus, when they return
to that upper room, where they had the last supper, (Mark 16:12)
they come and testify that they had met Jesus, and that he is ALIVE,
and they believed not (NOT IN EARLIER MANUSCRIPTS) (John 20:25)
Thomas is told that Jesus is ALIVE and he believed not Amazing
situation, you read this in your own mother tongue, the word is
alive, alive, alive, alive not resurrected, resurrected,
resurrected, so you invent a word, "resurrected" and you thumb-suck
it and tell the world that "alive" and "resurrection" are
one-in-the-same thing. It is not. Alive is alive...it's as if the
Holy Ghost didn't know the word "resurrected". If that was what had
happened, then the Holy Ghost must inspire Luke, and Mark, and
Matthew, and John, that he is resurrected, resurrected...not once,
not once are they made to say "resurrected" they are made to say
alive, alive, alive, alive. and the man (Jesus), he is in disguise,
eternally in disguise. He never came out into the open, why? If he
has conquered death, there is no need to be afraid any more, because
the scripture says (Heb 9:27) "And as it is appointed unto men ONCE
to die, but after this the judgment", you can't die twice, but this
man (Jesus), you can see the way he's behaving as if he has escaped
death by the skin of his teeth. Pontius Pilate, he finds the man not
guilty (of heresy). His wife sees a dream in which she is told that
no harm should come to this just man. He is only 3 hours on the
cross, and no man can die on the cross in 3 hours. According to your
own Church historians, people who write biographies of Jesus,
William Hanna, in his "The Life of Christ", he says that the victim
of crucifixion invariable survives the 1st day, and sometimes he
lived up to the 2nd and 3rd day, and there are instances where
people have lived up to the 4th and 5th day on the cross, alive. Why
should Jesus die within 3 hours? The other 2 that were supposed to
have been hanged with him, they were alive when they had to break
their bones (to speed up death before sunset). The bones of Jesus,
the legs of Jesus were not broken, why not? Because the Bible says
this is fulfillment of prophesy. It can only help a person, if the
bones are not broken, if he is alive (for breathing). If the man is
dead, and you break his bones, you saw them to pieces, you smash
them up, what difference does it make? So, when you look at each and
every individual act, I can give you 30 different reasons from the
scriptures to say that Jesus Christ was neither killed nor
crucified. You have this book here, "Crucifixion or Cruci-Fiction".
This book is available absolutely free of charge, and you read it
for yourself, but I don't know, this "wool" that the brother...the
Doctor has pulled over our eyes, how many... what portion of that
wool can I start removing in these 10 minutes. So now, I hope, at
question time, we'll have a better opportunity to justify the
subject whether Jesus Christ was crucified or was that a fiction.
- and our last prayer is that all praise is given to God, Lord of
the worlds -
QUESTIONS & ANSWERS Question - Mr.
Deedat. - "When Jesus Raised Lazarus from the dead, or any of the
others so raised, were they spiritualized? Paul spoke of the
resurrection at the end of time."
[but actually Paul spoke about Jesus' resurrection (1 Cor 15)]
Answer - You see, the difference between resurrection and
resuscitation is obvious. If Lazarus was resurrected, in that case
he would still be walking this earth, he might have been here with
us. Because as the scripture tells us, that no man can die twice
(Heb 9:27), so where is he now? If he was resurrected, either he's
spiritualized and gone up to heaven, but that didn't appear to the
Jews so, he walked among the people, and he lived among the people,
and he went back home, and he ate food. So, it must have been a
resuscitation, not a resurrection in the sense, that (Heb 9:27) only
"ONCE" you are resurrected "but after this the judgment". I hope
that answers that question. Question - "Dear brother
Ahmed Deedat, please clear the misunderstanding for the Christians
about Jesus' never being crucified nor killed on the cross, but the
situation looked like Jesus was there."
Answer - The Doctor made it appear, you know, as he was accusing me
of reading "into" the scripture. Uh, not seeing that he had been
doing the very same thing. Worse. You see, he says from the Holy
Quran, that the Quran says (4:157) {...They only follow
conjecture...} You see, "fiction". But, it says (4:157)
{...But it was made to appear to them so...} Now "shubbiha" doesn't
mean that somebody was substituted. The doctor says: somebody was
substituted the Quran says. Now the Quran doesn't say anything to
that effect. I don't know whether the Doctor knows Arabic, I'm sure
he does, the amount of time he spent in the Middle East. And if he
can show, from the Quran, that this word "shubbiha lahum" means
substitution, it would be something. Interpretations of people is
quite a thing apart. We are talking about BOOKS. When I'm referring
from the Bible, I said, look, your book says (Luke 24:39) "a spirit
has no flesh and bones, AS YOU SEE ME HAVE" If I were to tell you
that because I've got "flesh and bones", I'm not a spirit, I'm not a
ghost, I'm not a spook Is that what it means in your language, you
English man? Is that what it means in your language? And he says
"Yes". If I've got "flesh and bones" then I'm not the other thing. I
asked the same question to the Zulu, in his language, I said, is
this what it means in your language, and he agrees, and every
language group on earth. When you say the (Luke 24:39) "spirit has
no flesh and bones, AS YOU SEE ME HAVE" it means what it says. Now
you have to tell me that, look, in my language, when a man says "a
spirit has no flesh and bones", it means "a spirit HAS flesh and
bones". Sometimes, we English people, we speak in opposites. See,
and we mean the same thing. When we say "Slow Down", we mean also
"Slow Up". You know, one fellow says "Slow up, Slow up man, you're
too fast". The other says, "Look, he's telling you, why don't you
slow down, why don't you slow down". He says, slow down, slow up,
mean the same thing. When we say in English "Look out", we don't
mean "look out", we mean "look in". So what are you talking about?
What are you talking about? A French man was trying to learn
English, sitting in a skyscraper building, tall building sitting by
the window, and hears somebody shouting "Look out", and he looks
"out" and a brick grazed him on the head. He says "What's this? You
know, what kind of language is this?" "He tells me to look out, and
I look out." So he says "No, when we say look out, it means you look
in, you don't look out". Doctor, Doctor (friend), I say please tell
us, tell these people, that in my language, in English, when we say
(Luke 24:39) "a spirit has no flesh and bones, AS YOU SEE ME HAVE"
that it has flesh and bones. Tell them sir.
Question - "which version (of the Bible) do you suggest to be the
best" (question referred to Ahmed Deedat)
Answer - Let me correct Dr. Douglas (false analogy between Bible
"versions" and Quran "translations"). The difference between
"version" and "translation". You see, the Christian scholars and
missionaries are trying to confuse the Muslims with the term, that
"version" and "translation" means one and the same thing. It
doesn't. You have, in Christendom, the Roman Catholic version of the
Bible. The Douay-Rheims version. That version has 73 books inside.
73 books. The one...that the Protestant world upholds is the King
James Version of the Bible. This (King James) version has 66 books.
7 books less. Now you see, it's not just translation. It is not a
choice of words. When the Muslim says ... translation, he means
translation: Yusuf Ali, Daryabadi, Muhammad Ali, Mawdudi. Each and
every one of these are "translations". The difference is in the
choice of words. Synonymous words, terms, different words are being
used to translate a certain word, according to the person's
understanding or grasp of the language. That's a translation. But
when 7 books are thrown out of a book of God, Those 7 books,
according to brother Jimmy Swaggart, he said he said they are
"spurious", those 7 books. These scholars say that they are
"apocrypha", I'm asking "What is apocrypha?" Apocrypha is a
technical term for saying "doubtful authority". In other words, it's
not the word of God. So, the Protestants say "no". Then Dr. Douglas
is a Protestant, he doesn't accept those 7 books as the word of God.
If you do, then you are a Roman Catholic. Then, he
said "the most accurate". We go to the Greek scriptures, and the
most accurate rendering of the scriptures is the R.S.V. That is what
your scholars say. 32 scholars of the highest eminence in America,
backed by 50 cooperating denominations, they produced the R.S.V. -
Revised Standard Version of the Bible. And they say a "beautiful"
thing about the King James Version, which every Christian takes an
oath by, including Jimmy Swaggart. This is the book he uses. This is
the book he sells. Now, they say, the revisers, that this book, the
King James Version, has "GRAVE DEFECTS". And that these DEFECTS are
so many and so SERIOUS, as to call for revision, so they revised it.
So, they threw out... leave out the word "begotten". We're going to
the Greek scriptures. Hm, I don't know Greek. But... THE
TRINITY. The Holy Trinity, the bedrock of Christendom, Christianity.
Because, what is the dispute? We say God is one, he says God is one.
But they say that God is a triune God: "Father, Son, and Holy
Ghost", so we are at variance. We are at variance. Now that verse on
the trinity, the only place in this Bible... I don't know whether it
is in his Bible, the Greek, he didn't say which version he is
holding, but the bulk of Christendom, this (King James) is the one
they have in their hands, And the verse is in the First Epistle of
John, chapter 5, verse 7, where it says:
(1 John 5:7) "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the
Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
And it is thrown out as a fabrication. Out of the R.S.V., by your
scholars. So that's a VERSION. It's thrown out as a
fabrication, adulteration. Then the ascension of Jesus, the only
places in the Gospels where it occurs, is: Mark 16:19, that
"he was received up into heaven". Luke 24:51, "was taken up into
heaven". They are also thrown out as fabrications. Now that is
"version". You see, this is not saying that's translation. That's
not translation, things that were supposed to be NOT there, they
threw it out, and honesty demands that you do. So that is the
difference between a version and a translation.
Question - "If Christ showed the disciples that he
had NOT died, why would they go forth preaching that he had died?"
Answer - I do not read into the scripture that they started
preaching, you know, his immediate disciples, that Christ had died.
What they were telling (others) is that he's "ALIVE", "ALIVE",
"ALIVE" (Acts 1:3, Luke 24:23, Mark 16:12). And it was an
anti-climax to the idea that they had, that the man was killed, on
the cross. That was their experience, because they were not
eyewitnesses or earwitnesses to the happenings. So, now comes Jesus,
and he demonstrates to them that he is there, he's the very same
Jesus that was before (Luke 24:39-43. Eating broiled fish and
honeycomb (Luke 24:42-43), and going and traveling with them, ever
in hiding. So they said, no, the man is alive. We expected him to
have died, he hadn't died. So that was the conviction, that God
saved him. And that is what they were preaching.
This idea, that he died for the sins of mankind, it
doesn't seem to occur to me, because this is against the law of God
Almighty, where He says: (Ezek 18:20) "The soul that sinneth, it
shall die". This is the law of God. That the one that sins, that
soul shall die. And (Ezek 18:20) "The son shall not bear the
iniquity of the father". Meaning, whatever father Adam did, and
mother Eve did, He says (Ezek 18:20) "The son shall not bear the
iniquity", the SIN "of the father" (Ezek 18:20) "Neither shall
the father bear the iniquity of the son" He said (Ezek 18:20) "the
righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him". This is the law
of God, that whatever good thing the good man does, he gets his
reward. (Ezek 18:20) "And the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon
him" Whatever evil thing the evil man does, he gets punished for it.
(Ezek 18:21) "But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he
hath committed..." (Ezek 18:21) "...and do that which is lawful and
right, he shall surely live, he shall not die." This is the law of
God for all eternity. He does not take an innocent man to pay for
the guilty. This is against His Justice. The Doctor was talking
about the Justice of God, the Mercy of God, I say what kind of
justice and mercy is this, that He can't punish the evil mongers,
the sinners, so he takes his own son, and he gets him crucified.
Love? You call that love? Killing an innocent man, his own innocent
son? Amazing. Amazing type of reasoning, logic. The God of the
Bible, as well as the Quran, the Bible says, in the book of Isaiah:
(Isa 43:25) "...I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for
mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins". In other words, once
he forgives you, he's not asking you for blood, of sheep, or goat,
or lamb, nor of His son, but He says I forgive sins "for mine own
sake" and once I have forgiven, I do "not remember it", it's all
blotted out. This is the law of God, in the Bible, and the teaching
of Jesus, where Jesus Christ he says: (Mat 10:38) He "is not worthy
of me", "he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me" Take
up your cross and follow me, in other words, the way I carry my
responsibility, you carry yours. (Mat 5:20) verily, verily, "I say
unto you" Jesus says: (Mat 5:20) "except your righteousness shall
exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in
no case enter into the kingdom of heaven" There is no heaven for
you, Jesus says to his disciples, unless you are better than the
Jew, and I am asking, how can you be better than the Jew, by not
keeping the laws and the commandments. Question - To
Ahmed Deedat. "You base your arguments on small points of the Bible.
The same Bible which you believe is inaccurate. To me, this is a
contradiction. Why do you do this? I do respect your religion, but
this is a problem I can't understand."
Answer - Mr. Chairman and brethren, you see in every civilized
nation on earth, people have disputes, and when these disputes go to
court, the plaintiff, the complainant, he goes into the "box", into
the witness box, and he testifies, he puts forth his claim, and the
opposing advocate, attorney, he cross examines the witness. When
he's cross examining the witness on the evidence that he has given,
and on that evidence, if he can prove to the judge's satisfaction,
that the man is lying, lying, lying, if he feels satisfied that he
has convinced the judge, in his cross examination that the witness
was a liar, what he does is, he closes the case, and he asks for
absolution with costs, and he will get it. And this is normal
practice, an everyday affair: dispute, you cross examine the person,
and you come to a conclusion. Now the Holy Quran tells us to do the
same. It says: Quran 2:111 {and they say}, Who? The Jews and the
Christians. {"None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a
Christian."} That you Muslims will never, never enter (paradise),
there's no heaven for you, there's no salvation for you, except (if)
you become a Jew, or except (if) you become a Christian. In answer
to that, God Almighty makes us say: Quran 2:111 {Those are their
(vain) desires.} That this is their wishful thinking, vain desires,
hallucination. Quran 2:111 [Say: "Produce your proof if ye are
truthful."} Let's take a look at your certificate: that entitles you
to heaven, and destines us to hell. So they have produced it: the
Bible. In 2000 different languages. And he's saying "My Bible
says this, my Bible says that", so we have to cross examine the
Bible, your witnesses. And we are proving from the mouth of your
witnesses, that the thing that you are alleging, what you are
saying, you are claiming, is not there.
You see, now you say, "What about the other things
which are true?" I said, look, that is not at stake. If the Bible
said that "God is one", we say we agree with you. He says I quoted
you from the Bible, it said, look "Everyone is responsible for his
or her action", I say we agree with you. Can't you see? If you say,
"God is a loving Father in heaven", I said, right, we agree with
you. But when you say that He's like Shylock (a loan shark), wanting
to get a pound of flesh from his creation, Adam and Eve sin, and he
makes you responsible. And, at the beginning of 1986, there were 4.8
billion people on earth, and according to the Christian belief, that
everyone goes to hell.
For what? The sin that Adam and Eve committed. So I said, this is
the most nonsensical idea, because Adam didn't ask me before eating
the apple, nor did Eve ask my wife. How can God hold us responsible?
Question - "Mr. Deedat, in the Book of Revelation, Jesus claims that
'I am the first, and the last', and also he said 'I am Alpha and
Omega, and the beginning and the end'. If Christ was not God, how
could he make such a claim?"
Answer - The Book of Revelation, scholars will tell you, was a dream
of John. It was a DREAM, which he has put down on paper. These are
what people hear, if at all, that if Jesus appeared to him, to John
and told him "I am Alpha and Omega", if he did, which I do not
believe, that he's talking about God Almighty, that God is saying "I
am Alpha and Omega, I am the first and the last", not Jesus. But
suppose you put these words into the mouth of Jesus, according to
your translations, even then, a DREAM. You know, people, when they
eat a bit too much. It happens, you dream dreams, things that you
see. And you read this Book of Revelation, describing to you certain
beasts, with eyes outside, and eyes inside, and you know, something
which absolutely, you have eaten too much, you start thinking in
those terms.
So I said, "While Jesus walked this earth". We have
to now understand that while he walked this earth, In NONE of the
Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke or John, is the expression ever used,
"I am God" or "Worship me". On the contrary, he says: (John 14:28)
"The Father is greater than I", he says (John 10:29) "My Father ...
is greater than all", he says (John 5:30) "I can of my own self do
NOTHING; as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek
NOT my own will, but the will of the Father which has sent me.", he
says (Mat 24:36) "of that day and hour knoweth NO man, NO, not the
angels in heaven, but my Father ONLY.
In my knowledge I'm not like God, in my power I'm
not like God, he says, (Mat 28:18) "all power is GIVEN unto me" it
is not mine. (Luke 11:20) "I with the finger of God cast out
devils", (Mat 12:28) "by the spirit of God" do these things, where
does he say that HE is doing the works? That it is "his" power, "he"
is doing it, nowhere.
And Peter testified in the quotation that the Doctor
gave: Peter, in the Book of Acts, testifies: (Acts 2:22) "Ye men of
Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN approved of God
among you". "a MAN", not God, "approved among you". "a MAN".
He quoted it, but of course, the quotation went off such, like water
off a duck's back, you people hardly apprehended anything. It
says (Acts 2:22) "a MAN approved of God among you by miracles and
wonders and signs," (Acts 2:22) "which GOD DID BY him". He (Jesus)
didn't do it. (Acts 2:22) "which GOD DID BY him in the midst
of you, as ye yourselves also know". I said, look, we agree with
that. The Quran testifies to that effect, that he gave life to the
dead, by God's permission, he healed those blind and the lepers, by
God's permission. We agree with that. But I said, look now, your
interpretation, your reading, YOU are "reading into" your own
scripture something that is not there, and which is contrary to what
Jesus claimed.
He's teaching us, he says, come, I'll teach you how
to pray. (Mat 6:9) "After this manner therefore pray ye": Say, (Mat
6:9) "OUR Father which art in heaven". "OUR" father, yours and mine,
including Judas, not the "Father of Jesus Christ in heaven".
(Mat 6:9) "Hallowed by THY name". Singular. "THY" name. (Mat 6:10)
"THY kingdom come, THY will be done in earth, as it is in heaven".
Where does he say "I am God", where does he say "Worship me"?
Nowhere. Nowhere.
It is something now, like I just heard on TV, the
program of Jimmy Swaggart, giving some lessons on TV, and at the end
of that lesson, on Babylon, one of his panel members, he says "You
know, I've been to Mongolia. I've just been to Mongolia". "And
there" he says "I went to a Buddhist temple. And there, the
supervisor while he was with me, I'm asking him (about) this wheel,
prayer wheel, on which (Buddhist) people are pinning on your prayers
in written form, "and you turn the wheel. What for?" (The Buddhist)
says "No...now, we are asking, in this form, asking Buddha for
help". (The Christian) said, "Look, I read so many books on Buddha.
NOWHERE does Buddha claim to be God. NOWHERE." This is one of the
panel members of Jimmy Swaggart (who) says: "Nowhere (does Buddha)
say that Buddha is God". He said "Nowhere". (The Buddhist) said:
"Yes, that is true, but we say he is God. We make him God". This is
the same. What (the Christian) is talking (about), laughing at the
Buddhist, I said, my brother, you are in the same boat. You are
doing the very same thing. |