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Ahmed Deedat Debates
Ahmed Deedat vs Robert Douglas - Crucifixion, Fact or Fiction



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Part 1 - Ahmed Deedat




Part 2 - Ahmed Deedat




Part 3 - Ahmed Deedat




Part 4 - Ahmed Deedat (Robert Douglas @ 2:30)




Part 5 - Robert Douglas




Part 6 - Robert Douglas




Part 7 - Robert Douglas




Part 8 - Ahmed Deedat Continuation




Part 9 - Q&A




Part 10 - Q&A




Part 11 - Q&A




Mr. Ahmed Deedat

- I seek refuge in God from the accursed Satan -
- In the name of God, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful -
Quran 17:81 {And say: Truth hath come and falsehood hath vanished away...}
17:81 {...Lo! falsehood is ever bound to vanish.}
17:82 {And We reveal of the Qur'an that which is a healing and a mercy for believers...}
17:82 {...though it increase the evil-doers in naught save ruin.} - God Almighty has spoken the truth -
Mr. Chairman and my dear brothers and sisters, at the outset, since I'm beginning the talk and I see a lot of faces which appear to me to be those of the Christian faith, I would like to put forth our position vis-a-vis Christianity, that Islam is the only non-Christian faith which makes it an article of faith for its followers to believe in Jesus. No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe in Jesus.
1) We are made to believe that Jesus Christ was one of the mightiest messengers of God.
2) We believe in his miraculous birth, which many modern day Christians do not believe today.
3) We believe that he was the Messiah, translated "Christ"
4) And we believe that he gave life to the dead by God's permission, and he healed those born blind and the lepers by God's permission.
As such, the Muslim and the Christian is going together, but the parting of the way takes place on 3 bases:
#1, The original sin
#2, The divinity of Christ
and #3, The crucifixion
These are points of differences between the Muslims and the Christians.
With regards to the subject of crucifixion, as you see here on this banner here, it says "Crucifixion, Fact or Fiction". Now the Holy Quran gives a direct answer to that question.
It says: {In the Name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful}
4:157 {And they said in boast that we killed Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, the apostle of God...}
The Quran goes on: 4:157 that {...they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him...}
4:157 {...But it was made to appear to them so...}
4:157 {...And those who dispute therein, are full of doubts...}
4:157 {...They have no certain knowledge...}
4:157 {...They only follow conjecture...} Guesswork, fiction.
4:157 {...For of an assurity, they killed him not.}
It calls this event described by the Christians as crucifixion, crucifixion, to fix a person on the cross
any how, by nails or ropes or strings, and have him killed. To crucify means to kill by hanging or impaling on the cross. fixion, Crucifixion. We say, it is Cruci - FICTION. It sounds the same, crucifixion or crucifiction, the spelling gives us the difference between the two, that in the Islamic point of view, it is a fiction. Now, when we say that it is a fiction, the Christian brings forth, produces his book of evidence. He says, here, we have a written record by eyewitnesses and earwitnesses to the happenings some 2000 years ago. That Jesus Christ was hanged and killed on the cross some 2000 years ago.

Now, what I am going to do tonight is, instead of telling you this is what the Muslims say, this is what the Quran says, I said look, I want to show to you that the Bible that you hold in your hands, whatever version you have, you will find the verses that I'm going to quote and the argument I'm going to adduce.

See, Jesus Christ after his alleged crucifixion, alleged crucifixion he returns to that upper room, where they had the last supper, and he walks in and he says shalamalaikum, in Hebrew, meaning peace be unto you. When he said peace be unto you, his disciples were terrified. So I'm asking my learned friends, I have been doing this for quite some time, my learned friends of Christianity, why were they terrified? Because when you meet your long lost master, your uncle, your grandfather, your priest, your guru, the Arab and the Jew will embrace one another, kiss one another in the neck, that's how they meet one another, show their love and compassion for one another. Instead of doing that, the disciples of Jesus were terrified. I want to know why. Why were they terrified? So, the Christian tells me, he says you see, in Luke chapter 24 we are told by Luke (24:37) that they were "affrighted" because they thought he was a "SPIRIT". The wordings are, they THOUGHT he was a SPIRIT, a ghost, a spook. So I'm asking, did he look like a spirit? Did he look like a ghost? Did he look like a spook? The Christian says "No". Then I said, why should they think the man is a spirit when he didn't look like one? So he gets puzzled. This is my experience, with the most learned men of Christianity, they get puzzled. Why would they think the man is a spirit, when he doesn't look like a spirit? I said, the reason is that the disciples of Jesus they had heard from hearsay, people were talking, that the master was hanged on the cross. They had heard from hearsay, people were talking, that he had given up the ghost, in other words his spirit had come out, he had died. They had heard from hearsay what people were talking, that he is now dead and buried for 3 days...a man with such a reputation, you expect that man to be stinking in his grave after 3 days, because all the knowledge of the disciples was from hearsay. Because Mark 14:50, he says, that at the most critical juncture in the life of Jesus, "all" his disciples "forsook him and fled". "All" his disciples, they "forsook him and fled", which means they were not eyewitnesses or earwitnesses to the happenings. Their knowledge was from hearsay. So on hearsay evidence if you know about a man who is dead and buried, and when you see such a person, seemingly, that person, naturally you are terrified, because you are thinking that man is a spook, a ghost.

So Jesus Christ, wanting to assure them, that he is not what they are thinking. He says, and I'm quoting, he says (Luke 24:39) "behold my hands and my feet" look, have a look, at my hands and my feet, (Luke 24:39) "that it is I myself", I am the same fellow, man, what's wrong with you, what are you afraid of me for, he says (Luke 24:39) "handle me, and see", (Luke 24:39) "handle me, and see; for a spirit has no flesh and bones, as you see me have". "a spirit" means "any spirit".  This is an axiomatic truth. You don't have to prove this to the Jews, to the Atheists, to the Agnostics, it's an axiomatic truth, universally accepted, that a spirit will not have flesh and bones. Then why is Jesus at pains to tell them so? A fact well known and accepted. The reason is, because the disciples of Jesus were thinking, the man has come back from the dead, he was resurrected, he was spiritualized. That is the reason, so he is telling them, I am not what you are thinking. I am not a spirit, I am not a ghost, I am not a spook. And they handle him, and they (Luke 24:41) "believed not for joy", means they were overjoyed, (Luke 24:41) "and wondered", what happened man? We thought the man was dead and buried. But we can see, he's demonstrating that he is himself, flesh and blood. And they (Luke 24:41) "believed not for joy, and wondered", so Jesus wants to assure them further, he says (Luke 24:41) "Have you here any meat?" Something to eat. (Luke 24:42-43) "and they gave him a piece of broiled fish, and a honeycomb, and he took it" and he ATE. (Luke 24:43) "in their very sight", to prove what? That he is a ghost? That he is a spook? That he is a spirit? No, to prove that he is himself, and he is not resurrected.

Because the resurrected bodies get spiritualized. Who says so? I say, Paul. Who says so? I say, Jesus. Who says so? I say, each and every one of you. Each and every one of you will admit that the resurrected bodies won't be this. Flesh and blood, flesh and bones, it will be spiritualized. But the greatest testifier of the scriptures, Paul, of Christianity, Paul, in his book of Corinthians, 1st Cor 15 he says, talking about the resurrection of Christ, the whole chapter, in some bibles is headed "the resurrection of Christ". The chapter itself is addressed "the resurrection of Christ". In verse 3, he says, (1 Cor 15:3) "Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures", verse 4 (1 Cor 15:4) "and he was raised again from the dead according to the scriptures". The "scriptures" that he's talking about is not Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, because they were not written. His is about 56 (years) after Christ, and the others goes to about 60, according to Christian scholars. So, he is not referring to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, he was...you know, going through them, and found out what was what, no. He's speaking from his knowledge of the Old Testament. Verse 14 he says:
(1 Cor 15:14) "if Christ is not risen (from the dead)... our preaching is vain... your faith is vain".
In other words, Christianity has nothing to offer mankind, you have nothing to offer. And I can assure you that in my country, you Christian missionary, when he comes to our homes, he does not come to tell us about hygiene, personal hygiene, I mean. We Muslims are the most hygienic people on earth. I will not go into details, this is not the occasion, the most hygienic people on earth. At question time you may ask, and I will demonstrate to you, I'll explain to you. We are the most hospitable people on earth. In ethics and in morality, you can't point a finger at us, that "we are better than you". No group of ... religious group in my country can show a candle to us, that "we are better than you". The only thing he can tell us is, that "you have no salvation", "because salvation only comes through the blood of the lord Jesus", "which you do not accept" that's the only thing he has to tell us. So, Paul says, that if this (resurrection) didn't happen, then your preaching is vain, useless, worthless. And your faith is also useless, worthless. As the American would put it, it's all garbage. "Your religion is garbage, if you didn't have this (resurrection)", this is the only sales point that you have. Then in verse 35, he says
(1 Cor 15:35) someone may rationally ask, how do the dead rise again? and with what kind of body will they come?
He poses this question, not seeking information from us, but it's a rhetorical question, and he himself answers it in verse 42. He says there (1 Cor 15:43) that that which is "sown", means buried, "is sown in weakness; it is raised in power"
(1 Cor 15:42) "it is sown in corruption; it is raised in glory",
(1 Cor 15:44) "it is sown" means buried "a physical body; it is raised a spiritual body".
Once you die, this body, this physical body, is put into the dust, dust with dust, from dust thou art, and to dust thou shall return, finished. But when you are resurrected, it is not the dust, it will be a spiritualized body, according to saint Paul. And on that premise, the whole of his 14 books in the New Testament are written. More than half of the New Testament was written by Paul, 14 out of the 27 books, and the whole premise of his argument is that Christ was risen from the dead, resurrected, spiritually. A spiritual body.

When people say spiritual body, they think, well "body", what is "body", look at the dictionary, and then you say look, "body" has mass, volume, dimensions, so he says, "you see, there was a body".  I said, this is an apparition, when you see an apparition, what is an apparition, it appears to us in the form of a body. The ghost you see, what do you see, you see something, that appears to be a human kind. But we know, that thing is something you can't grapple with, you can't grasp it, you can't pocket it. You see the filmmakers, your American filmmakers in Hollywood, they made these things something that we can imagine far more easily. Again and again, they conjure up, you know, somebody coming out through a keyhole, steam comes out and then you find it materialize into a man. The invisible man. Or Sabu, you know, he played "The Thief of Baghdad", in which we see that he picks up a bottle on the seashore, and he opens the bottle, and something comes out like smoke, and it materializes into a genie. But that genie has a form, it has a body, but it is an invisible, an imperceptible body, something that you can't grapple with, but you say a body, you see a body. If it's only thin air, you see nothing. It might be there, but you see nothing. So it materializes, so we say it appears to us in the form of a body.

So, "spiritual body" says saint Paul. That's his understanding of the resurrection. Everybody, anybody, when you are resurrected, you will be spiritualized. And he was only confirming what Jesus had said in the Gospel of Saint Luke, according to the records, chapter 20, In chapter 20 of Luke, we read there that the Jews, his own people, they come to him. They were always coming to him with poses and riddles, trying to trip this man of God. Now they come to him, and they say "Master", in the Hebrew language "Rabbi", respected / learned man, priest, bishop, whatever, Rabbi, there was a woman among us, and that woman, according to a Jewish practice had 7 husbands. See, there was a Jewish custom that if one brother died, and if he left no offspring, then the 2nd brother takes her to wife, and when he fails (to have offspring) and dies, the 3rd fellow takes her to wife, and when he fails and dies, the 4th and the 5th and the 6th and the 7th. Seven guys had this one woman. One after another. But there was no problem, because it was all one by one. So they're asking Jesus now, that at the resurrection, which guy is going to have her, because they all had her here. See, if you have her here, you want to have her on the other side. This is natural. Suppose you and your wife are resurrected and you see her on the other side, meet, you say darling, sweetheart, come sweetie, this is ... this is natural, If you recognize your wife, you know, on the other side, he says, well you know, the closeness that you have established on this earth, for 5 years for 50 years, you have been together, as husband and wife. Now, you want to establish, or continue the same relationship on the other side. But at the resurrection, since everybody is resurrected instantaneously, you know, simultaneously, (at the) same time, then the 7 brothers waking up (at) one time, and they see this woman. Then everybody will be going after her, you see, he says "this is mine, I had her", the other guy says "this is mine, I had her", everybody had her, and everybody will be fighting over this one woman. As wife. And there will be war in heaven between the 7 brothers, "get away, this is mine, this is mine"..."now, where (did) you come from" he says "I had her" because they won't remember the other guys having her before them, you see. So they want to know from Jesus which guy is going to have her on the other side, because they all had her here.
In answer to that, Jesus says, he says (Luke 20:36) "neither shall they die any more", meaning that once they are resurrected, they will be immortalized. (Luke 20:36) "Neither shall they die any more". They will be immortalized. In other words, the things that kill a person, lack of food, shelter, clothing, rest, these things will not be necessary on the other side. Once you die, you do not die a 2nd time. No more death, immortalized. This is a physical body which has got its physical needs: food, shelter, clothing, sex, rest. That body, no food, no shelter, no clothing, no sex, no rest, of the type that we know. It will be of some kind, other kind, spiritual kind, but not this kind. So he says (Luke 20:36) "Neither shall they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels". In other words, they will be angelized. They will have spiritual bodies, like angels. What kind of bodies (do) they have? Not this. (Luke 20:36) "For they are equal unto the angels", they will be angelized. They will be spiritualized. They will have spiritual bodies. They will be spirits. (Luke 20:36) "For they are equal unto the angels; and the children of God" for SUCH are "the children of the resurrection". SUCH. Spirits, they will be "such". Spirits. Paul says spirits, Jesus says spirits. I wonder if there is a single person here who takes exception to that, he says it will be this body? Is there one here? In the Royal Albert Hall in front of some 6,000 people in London, I posed the question, and there was not a single Muslim or Christian who could take exception to these axiomatic truths, that resurrection at that time your bodies will be spiritualized. Paul says so, Jesus says so, I say so, and you say so.

So he (Jesus) says (Luke 24:39) "a spirit has no flesh and bones" in other words, I am not what you are thinking. You are thinking that I have come back from the dead, that is not so, I am not resurrected. And yet the whole Christian world, they say that he died and he was resurrected. The man says, I am not what you are thinking, and eating broiled fish and honeycomb. These are the needs of this physical body. But somehow, you see, people get programmed. I was talking about people getting "brainwashed" at the Berkeley University in 1977, I was talking to the my American people, some teachers and students, and I said "You people are brainwashed". So one professor stood up, he says "I beg your pardon, we are programmed". I say, right, "programmed" not "brainwashed", so we all get programmed. See, from childhood. Because our salvation depends on this, that we must believe that Christ died and was resurrected. But resurrection is spiritual, and we find that everything about Jesus, after...his post-crucifixion events, not once does he appear to be a spirit.

He is ever in hiding. He is ever in hiding. He never came out into the open. He never went to the temple of Jerusalem. He had given the Jews a sign. He never went to fulfill that sign. "Sign" means a miracle. To say, look "you remember what I told you, here I am, do your worst". But he didn't dare do anything, he didn't dare to go to meet these people, the Jews, his own people. He had given them a sign. In Matthew 12:38-40, we read there... again the same type of confrontation. The Jews come along, and they said "master" again in the Hebrew language "Rabbi" (Matt 12:38) "we would have a sign of thee". In other words, we want you to show us a miracle to convince us that you are above the ordinary, you are the man we are waiting for "the Messiah". Do something like flying in the air, like a bird. Walk on the water. Give life to the dead, do something man. Then we know that you are above the ordinary. So that we can believe that you are our Messiah.

In response to that, Jesus says to his people, he said (Matt 12:39) "an evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign". That's a horrible nation, horrible people, you looking for miracles, tricks, it's tricks. To convince you that I am a genuine man of God, you want me to show you some tricks, magic. He said (Matt 12:39) "an evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign" but "there shall no sign be given unto it". No sign, no miracle. Except (Matt 12:39) "the sign of the Prophet Jonah". Only one, none but one. (Matt 12:40) "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the son of man" referring to himself "be three days and three nights in the belly of the earth". This is the only sign I am prepared to give you. The only miracle I'm prepared to concede to, is this. He didn't say, you know, blind Bartimaeus, I healed him. You know, that woman with issues, bleeding profusely for years, she touched me and she got healed. You know, I brought up Lazarus back from the dead. You know, that girl, she had died and I brought her back. You know, that fig tree, I destroyed it from its very roots. You know, I killed those 2000 pigs. You know, I turned water into wine. Nothing, nothing of the kind. He never showed any of these things, says "look, look back, look back man, at what I have done so far"...um. The only sign I'm prepared to give you, is the sign of Jonah. What happened to Jonah is going to happen to me. His miracle is my miracle.

And I have been asking these Missionaries of Christendom, these hot gospellers, these bible thumpers, Evangelists, Preachers, I said now, what was that sign? He said my sign is the sign of Jonah, I said what was that sign? And believe me, in 40 years, no Christian worth the name has ever come forth to tell me what was that sign. I say, did he fulfill it, he says, yes. I said, what... how? Speechless. Of course, our Dr. Robert Douglas may be better prepared, he might know all these things beforehand, he is a missionary, you know, in the Middle East among the Muslims he has been, and he's somebody big in the Zwimmer Institute. He might have the answer. But, I will give it to you, in case he fails, so I might as well give it to you beforehand. What was the sign, I said, look, to get the sign... to know what was the sign of Jonah, you have to go to the book of Jonah in the Bible. And that Book of Jonah is 1 page. This is the page. Four short chapters, 1 page. So if you go to the book of Jonah, it won't take you 2 minutes. It won't take you 2 minutes to read this book. This whole book. It won't take you 2 minutes. So we read there that Jonah was sent to the Ninevites. God Almighty commands him, go to Nineveh, and warn the people that they must repent, and in sackcloth and in ashes, humble themselves before the Lord, otherwise, I will destroy the people. Jonah, a prophet of God, but he is human, he feels despondent, he says, these materialistic people, they will not harken to the message, they will make a mockery out of me, as Jesus described them, a wicked and adulterous generation, this wicked and adulterous generation of Jonah's time, they're going to make a mockery of him. So he says, instead of going to Nineveh to warn the people, he goes to Joppa and takes a boat and is running away, to Tarshish. You don't have to remember the names. Instead of going to one direction, he goes in the opposite direction, and is running away. At sea, there is a storm. And according to the superstitions of these people, whosoever runs away from his master's command, deserts his duty, calls for such punishment. So they began to question, who can be responsible for this havoc, because the storm is not abiding. It is not subsiding. So Jonah, he realizes that he is the guilty person. Because actually, he is running away from his master's command. God tells him to go to Nineveh, and he's going to Joppa. As a soldier of God, he had no right to do things presumptuously. So he makes a manly come-back. He said, I am the guilty man, and it is expedient that you take me and you throw me into the sea. And God will be satisfied, because actually he is after my blood, not you. And because of me, you innocent people will die. It's better for you that you throw me into the sea. One man perish, save the nation. They said, no, you are such a nice man, holy man, maybe praying continuously. He said, we have a system of our own. Our own system to find out right from wrong. And that system, is a system, what is called "casting of lots". Like head or tail. We do "head or tail", we did it just now, head or tail. So they had a system of casting lots like head or tail. And according to that system, of tossing the coin, it came to the turn of Jonah, that Jonah was the guilty man, so they took him and they threw him overboard. And the storm subsided. Perhaps it was a coincidence, but the storm subsided.

Now, I'm asking the question, that when they threw Jonah overboard, was he dead or was he alive? But before you answer, I don't want to get the wrong answer. Because once you give the wrong answer, your going to stick by it. This is human nature. You know, once you make a wrong statement, you don't like to admit your mistake. So I want to help you before you open your mouth. You don't mind. I said, you see, Jonah had volunteered. He had volunteered. He says throw me overboard. And a man when he ... volunteers, you don't have to strangle him before throwing. You agree, he says, throw me. You don't have to kill him, you don't have to break his arm or limb, you don't have to spear him. Am I right? The man says, throw me. So when they threw him overboard, was he dead or was he alive? I want to hear from you all. And please, I want to hear, that it can also be recorded on our tapes, please. Was he dead or was he alive when they threw him overboard? What? ALIVE. You got the right answer. But you get no prize for that. It was too simple. As you see, it's very simple. The Jews say he was alive, the Christians say he was alive, the Muslims say he was alive, no prize. The storm subsides, and a fish comes and gobbles him up. Dead or alive? Alive. Right. From the fish's belly, he prays to God for help, according to the Book of Jonah. I am asking, do dead men pray? Dead people, do they pray? No. So, he was? Alive. A little louder please. Alive.
(heckler - inaudible)
(to heckler) You will be given the opportunity at question time, whoever you are, you will be given the opportunity at question time to ask questions. Be man enough, be Christian enough to please keep your mouth shut for the moment.
Three days and three nights, the fish takes him round the ocean. Dead or alive? Alive. Don't be afraid. Don't get terrified. On the third day, the fish vomits him on the seashore. Dead or alive? Alive. Look, whether you are a Hindu, or a Christian, or a Jew, or a Muslim, if you read this record, and you had sound common sense, you will say, alive, alive, alive, alive. And it's a miracle. It's a miracle of miracles. When you throw a man into a raging sea, he ought to die. If he died, no miracle. Because we expect him to die. A fish comes and gobbles a man, he ought to die. If he died, no miracle. If he didn't die, it's a miracle. Heat and suffocation in the belly of the whale, the man ought to die, 3 days and 3 nights. He ought to die, if he died, no miracle. No "mujiza" (miracle). No sign. If he didn't die, it's a miracle. So, it's a miracle, of a miracle, of a miracle, an outstanding miracle in the Bible. 3 times over. It's a miracle from every point of view.

So Jesus says, (Matt 12:40) "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the belly of the earth". As Jonah was, so shall the son of man be. I'm asking, how was Jonah for 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the whale? Dead or Alive? Alive. I'm asking, again, how was Jesus in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights? Dead or Alive? I beg your pardon? No, according to Christendom? Dead! Ask the Professor, ask the Doctor. He says he was dead for 3 days and 3 nights. Jonah was alive for 3 days and 3 nights, Jesus was dead for 3 days and 3 nights. Any Christian worth the name, he will tell you that, any Christian, you don't have to be a DD, and you don't have to be a theologian, or a preacher or an evangelist, hearing voices from heaven, you need nothing. Jonah is alive, the Christian says Jesus was dead. I am asking, in your language, you English speaking peoples, you Americans who speak English, the Englishman who speaks English, I speak English. I speak English as my mother tongue. See this is the nearest, because psychologists say that your mother tongue is the language in which you dream and the language in which you swear. And I dream in English and I swear in English. So, from that angle I am also an "English" man. See, I am an English speaking person, though my mother tongue is Gujrati, I speak Urdu, I speak half a dozen different languages, but my mother tongue is English, according to the psychologists. So, I am asking, in your language, though, I am sure all of you understand English, otherwise you wouldn't be here. I said, in your language, you see, is this "like" Jonah or "unlike" Jonah? Jesus says (Matt 12:40) "for AS Jonah was", LIKE Jonah...Jonah was alive, Jesus was dead, is that in your language "like" Jonah, or "unlike" Jonah? In your language. Unlike. So, I am asking now, is Jesus speaking the truth, or are you speaking the truth? Is Jesus a liar, or you are a liar? Either. Look, you both can't be right. He says I'll be like Jonah, and your telling me he's not like Jonah. So he failed, or he lied, or you are lying. Yes, you have to admit that you have ... you have misunderstood the whole thing. You reading this in your own language, simple basic English. King's English, or Queen's English. This language I'm talking, (Matt 12:40) "for AS Jonah was ... so shall the son of man be". Like Jonah, not unlike Jonah.

The very learned person, he says, "No, no, no, no Mr. Deedat. You see, Jesus is here emphasizing the time factor" I say there is nothing miraculous about a time factor. Whether a man is, you know, dead, I mean unconscious, or ... gone into hibernation for 3 minutes, 3 days, 3 hours, 3 years, that is not a miracle. The miracle is that you expect a man to die and he doesn't die. That is a miracle. But "a drowning man clutches at straws". You see, he says, "No, no, no Mr. Deedet. You see it is the time factor that Jesus was emphasizing" "Can't you see," he said "for as Jonah was THREE days and THREE nights... "so shall the son of man be THREE days and THREE nights. He repeats the word 'three' four times, so it is the time factor ... that he was emphasizing, not whether dead or alive"

So I am asking... Look, did he fulfill that? The time factor, did he fulfill that? He says "Yes." I said, look, you're going to make another split just now. You're going to fall again. You have made one "faux pas", you have made one mistake, you have accused Jesus of lying he said I'll be like Jonah, you say he was unlike Jonah, he didn't fulfill it, and you are going to make a 2nd mistake just now. But no, no, no, "a drowning man clutches at straws" and you will find drowning women will do the same. Same. So I said, now, look, when was he crucified? When was Jesus crucified? And Christendom as a whole, they give you the answer "Good Friday". Have you heard of Good Friday, do you have Good Friday in your country here? We have it in South Africa. They call it in Afrikaans "Goeie Vrydag" see, Good Friday. In South Africa, we celebrate Good Friday. Swaziland, Basutu, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Britain, France, Germany, Italy, name them, name them, every Christian nation on Earth commemorates Good Friday. What makes "Good Friday" good? They say "Christ died for our sins". Is that what makes it good? He said "Yes". So it was on a Good Friday? He said "Yes". I said OK, when was he crucified, morning or afternoon? When? Well, some say morning, some say afternoon, I say I won't argue. Whatever you say, I accept. How long was he on the cross? Some say 3 hours, some say 6 hours. I say I won't argue with you. I won't argue with you, you say 3, I accept, if you say 6, I accept. I said, you know, the Jews were in a hurry, to put him up on the cross. That's the reading of the scriptures. Why were they in a hurry? Because they were afraid of the common people. Jesus was a hero to the common people. He had healed the blind, the lepers, he had given life back to the dead, on one occasion, he fed 5000 people with a few pieces of fish and a few pieces of bread, on another occasion, another 3000 people with a few pieces of fish and a few pieces of bread. A man with such a reputation, the people love the man. And if his life was endangered, there might be a revolt, a riot. So, quickly, quickly, quickly apprehend the man, and get rid of him. So they grabbed him, and they take him, had a midnight trial, which doesn't happen in Jewry. Midnight trial. Early in the morning, they take him to Pilate. And as if Pilate had nothing else to do, he was waiting. He receives them, and Pilate says, look, this is not my kettle of fish, take him to Herod. They take him to Herod. Herod had nothing to do, he was also waiting. Nothing to do, these royal people, nothing to do, they're just waiting. And he says, look, he says, take him back to Pilate. They take him back to Pilate. Pilate is still waiting. All these things happen on the double, only these things happen in films. In your Hollywood, in real life it doesn't happen (so fast), but whatever you tell me, I said I accept. No arguments. So, finally, they get him on the cross, we are told, about 3 o'clock in the afternoon. And he's there for about 3 hours, according to the Christians. As much as the Jews were in a hurry to put him up, queer people, they were also in a hurry to bring him down. You know why? Amazing, they were in a hurry to put him up, now they are in a hurry to bring him down, from the cross. You know why? Because of the Sabbath - Saturday - Because they were told in the book of Deutronomy (Deut 21:22-23) that they must see to it that nobody is hanging on the tree on the Sabbath day (Deut 21:23) "that thy land be not defiled , which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance" So for that, you know, it was a filthy, dirty sacrilegious thing for anybody to be hanging on the cross on - Saturday - Sabbath Day And Sabbath begins at 6 o'clock on Friday. According to the Muslims, the Jews, our day begins at sunset. Day changes. The Jews, at sunset, the Muslims, at sunset. At sunset, we see the moon, we start fasting. At the end of the month, we see the moon, we stop fasting. That's how the Jews count their days, and the Muslims count their days. So Sabbath starts on Friday, 6 o'clock. So before that, they want to bring the body down. So hurry, hurry, hurry, and they managed to bring the body down, without breaking the legs, there is also a prophecy being fulfilled in that, they brought him down. And, they gave him a burial wash, which takes about an hour, hour and a half. The Jewish ... Jewish burial bath - Ghusl (in Arabic). Then they put 100 pounds of medicants around him. And they put a shroud around him. And they put him into the sepulcher. By now, it's already evening. There is no other way. If this is what you are telling me, the story is correct, then by the time they put him into the grave, and did these things, it's already evening. So, Friday night, he is supposed to be in the grave. Watch my fingers. Friday night, he is supposed to be in the grave. Saturday day, he is still supposed to be in the grave. You see, I am dividing the day into day and night. Because Jesus did the same, he said (Matt 12:40) "for as Jonah was three days and three nights", the day into day and night, day and night, day and night ... I say, Friday night, Saturday day, Saturday night, Sunday morning, the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene goes to the tomb (BEFORE SUNRISE Mark 16:2) That's what the Bible says. (BEFORE SUNRISE Mark 16:2) And the tomb was empty. I said, "supposed", "supposed", "supposed", you know why? Because he could have come out Friday night. But because the Bible doesn't say that, I don't say that. But he could have come out Friday night. So I am asking, how many days and how many nights. Can you see my fingers? You people, how many? What "three"?  Two nights, and a day. You see, two nights and a day. I am asking, is it the same as what Jesus said? (Matt 12:40) "for as Jonah was three days and three nights...so shall the son of man be three days and three nights", I am asking, look at this, is it the same? Is it the same? Unless you are blind. Look at this. So he failed again. There is no mathematician on Earth, even your Einstein, he can't help you here.

Yes, you have to follow Herbert Armstrong. You have to listen to Herbert Armstrong. (to heckler) Is this how you Americans behave? In a religious meeting? I said, you have to go and follow Herbert Armstrong. He is dead now, but his hierarchy continues "The Plain Truth", the magazine, they are publishing 8 million and 80,000 a month, free distribution. Go and get it, and they will tell you that Jesus Christ was not crucified on a Good Friday. They say it was a Good Wednesday. Do you know that? It's a new trend. And 8 million a month they are pushing out, 8 million. He's going to brainwash the whole of Christendom. Sooner or later, you will find everybody is talking about a Good Wednesday, a Good Wednesday, a Good Wednesday, and I'm telling my people in South Africa, I say look, if our government, if they ever change Good Friday to Good Wednesday, we are going to protest, we will march on Parliament House. You know why? Because Good Friday is a good day for the Muslims too. You know why? Because our people, our workers, factories, all over, we are able to go to the mosque on Fridays. Gather together, and we have the biggest gatherings on Good Friday, in our Masjids. And we have 3 days holiday. Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Once it's Good Wednesday, you'll have only one day holiday. So, I said we will march onto Parliament House, and I said you my brothers and sisters, are you prepared...will you be prepared to follow me, and 100% says we'll follow you. March onto Parliament House. We'll never allow Good Wednesday to come about, because it won't suit us. But the Christians, you are in a conflict. The mighty messenger of God, according to you, he fails a 2nd time in fulfilling one prophesy.

I said, look, this man, you say he came to die for the sins of the world. Look at it, at that eventful...on the verge of that Good Friday, on the Thursday. He takes his disciples to that upper room. And they're having the supper, and at the supper table he is telling them, he says, you remember when I sent you out on your mission of preaching and healing, (Luke 22:35) I told you that you must carry nothing with you, no papers, no shoes, no staff, no stick (Luke 22:35) Did you lack anything? (Luke 22:35) They said, no, we lacked nothing. But he says (Luke 22:36) but now I tell you, those of you who have no swords must sell your garments and buy them. Swords, swords. You know, to chop off people's heads. Swords, he is telling them to buy swords. So one of them said (Luke 22:38) master, we have 2 already. So he says this is enough. Why should 2 swords be enough? What are you going to do with swords? Pearing apples, bananas, what do you do with swords? Chop off people's heads. And he's telling you, in the Gospel of Saint Luke, chapter 19 verse 27: (Luke 19:27 in a parable) he said for "those mine enemies which would not that I should reign over them" I will become their ruler, their king, he says (Luke 19:27 in a parable) bring them hither and "slay them before me". With what, with your fingers? What do you slay them with? (Luke 19:27 in a parable) bring them hither and "slay them before me", cut their throats. (in a parable) If those of you who are not prepared to accept me as your king, bring them and kill them. So now he's telling them (to) arm themselves, and they arm themselves, to the limit. And he takes them to the garden of Gethsemane. I said, what for? To pray? I said, couldn't he have prayed in that upper room? Couldn't he have gone to the temple of Jerusalem, a stone's throw from where he was? Couldn't he have done that? Why Gethsemane? I said, look, there is a strategy involved, when he takes his disciples to Gethsemane, in the middle of the night, not for prayer, he puts 8 men at the gate. He says, (Matt 26:38) "tarry ye here and watch with me" and he takes with him Peter and the 2 sons of Zebedee, those "fighting Irishmen" of the time. Peter "the rock", and the sons of Zebedee, they're called "sons of thunder", this is the title given to them "fighting Irishmen" of their time, among the Jews, he takes them further into the garden, and he makes an inner line of defense. And he says, (Matt 26:38) sit ye here and watch with me. Watch what? It means keep guard.

(Matt 26:39) "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed (to God) (Matt 26:39) "saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me" meaning remove the difficulty from me but (Matt 26:39) "not as I will, but as thou wilt". I want you, oh my lord, I want you to save me, but in the end I put myself at your disposal  (Luke 22:44) "And being in an agony, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was as if it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground." What a choice. God Almighty has made a choice.  There was a contract between father and son, before the worlds began, says the Christian. Before the worlds began, there was a contract between father and son. It says, My son, I will send you into the world, in the year 4000 after Adam. And I want you to die for the sins of mankind. It looks like Jesus didn't know anything about it.

Look (at) how he's behaving. 8 at the gate. Shh, you tarry here. You 3 come, follow me, shh. You sit here. Is this how you prepare for suicide? Is this how you prepare for sacrifice? A willing sacrifice? You tell me. If you have ever served in the army, at any time, or been with the scouts, boy scouts or girl scouts, you will be able to confirm that when you do things like that, you are preparing, it's a strategy of preparation, not for death, but for protection. And swords? If the Jews were to come there, he says I know my people he says, the spirit that the disciples were showing, they were beating their breast in that upper room saying (Matt 26:35) master, we are prepared to go to prison for you, master, we are prepared to die for you. Such people with sticks and stones, and 2 swords, they would have knocked holes into the Jews. But the Jews were cleverer than what he thought. They bring Roman soldiers with them. The situation changes. Against trained men, what can you do? They'll be cut to pieces your disciples, so Jesus says, (Matt 26:52) "put down your sword, because he who lives by the sword, shall die by the sword" Didn't he know this before? He knew, but circumstance changes, and the man changes. He's a master strategist, but he had not come to die, and he had not died, as such he was neither killed nor crucified. You see, all his actions, post "crucifixion" actions, supposed to be crucified, after, every action, every move that he makes, the way he behaves, is that of a man who has escaped death by the skin of his teeth, not the one who has been resurrected.

Mr. Chairman, and brethren. You know, Dr. Douglas has pulled so many red herrings before me, I don't know which one to follow. You see, he has brought up things absolutely irrelevant to the debate. The authenticity of the scriptures, which was not in question tonight. I had a debate on that subject with brother Jimmy Swaggart, 1 or 2 hour session, debate and Q&A. Now, he's pulling that red herring before me, do I pursue that? About the variations in the Quran, shall I pursue that? Or about the different "versions", as compared to the "translations" of the Quran, shall I pursue that? In other words, this 10 minutes, all will be wasted if I start pursuing these red herrings that he has thrown, pulling wool over our eyes.

You see, he makes statements, contradictory statements. He says that Jesus was alive in the tomb. For 3 days and 3 nights, he was alive. At the same time, now he said on the 3rd day, he was resurrected. He's a unique person in my experience. I have come across hundreds of learned Christians. Nobody ever told me that Jesus was alive, "He was dead" they say, on the cross, and for 3 days and 3 nights, he was dead in the tomb, and on the 3rd day he was resurrected. But his idea is, no, that he was alive. So, he's running with the ... hound "Running with the hare and hunting with the hound"

He has been trying to give us... he says, "spiritual has so many meanings" I agree. "Spirit" in the Bible does not mean the same thing every time. When you talk about "the spirit", they say it's the Holy Ghost. That I have "the Spirit of God" they mean they have "the Holy Ghost" Then the Bible speaks about 7 Spirits of God that went down into the world. No Christian said there were 7 Holy Ghosts. We are told in the Gospel of Saint John, that (John 3:6) he that is born of spirit is spirit, and he that is born of the flesh is flesh. We know it doesn't mean what Jesus was talking about, these are different things on different levels, and they have different meanings. But at the same time, why doesn't brother Douglas tell you that the word "dead" and "died" also have a dozen different meanings in the Bible. That dead doesn't mean dead, in the sense that the man, his soul has departed from the body. You see, sir, in the 1st book of the Bible, Genesis, God Almighty warns Adam. He says (Gen 2:17) this fruit of this certain tree, thou shalt not eat, (Gen 2:17) "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die". And yet Adam lived for 930 years. So... the learned men of Christendom, they have a nice way out: He says, "No, this was spiritual death." "Spiritually he had died, but physically he lived for 930 years." And I agree with them. Why not, the same explanation, be given in the case of Jesus? You speak about the prodigal son, in your preachings to your congregations, "prodigal son". (Luke 15:11-13) The one who had asked for his "portion of goods" from the father and had gone to a foreign land. Met bad company. In the mire, in the gutter, and there he makes up his mind to return. And he returns. And the father, representing God, he sees this prodigal returning, and he says: (Luke 15:24) that "this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found". Why don't you tell us that, look, this "dead" doesn't mean dead, it was separation from the father. Explain to them, that it's separation, it's not death, because the child, the son had never died, Adam had never died for 930 years. So it's separation, separation, separation, so "death" means separation. Also... why won't you now translate or explain that this "death" of Jesus was also a separation from God, because you read in your own scriptures, no use bringing the Quran into the picture, because we are talking about your records. Explain your records as they are in your own language. You see, Jesus on the cross is supposed to have cried out, with a loud voice, (Mat 27:46) "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" (Mark 15:34 "Eloi") (Mat 27:46 & Mark 15:34) which means "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" What is this "forsaken"? Adam was forsaken by God, you call it "death". The son, prodigal, had departed from his father, separated from the father, it was "death". Jesus Christ, according to his own admission, he's separated from God, he's "dead". That is spiritual death. But the death that you are talking about (ie, resurrection), he must die physically. He must give his life that his soul departs from his body, that is death.

And if that death took place, then you say for 3 days he was alive. And this miracle that Jesus is talking about, the miracle (of Jonah), of Jonah, miracle, is not being entombed, as you say, for 3 days and 3 nights. What's miraculous about that? You put a man in a cave, in a tomb for 3 days and 3 nights, what's miraculous about that? If you put him for 3 weeks, what is miraculous about that? The miracle is that you expect a man to die, and if he doesn't die, it's a miracle. And according to that, the whole of Christendom says that "Jesus was dead for 3 days and 3 nights, Jonah was alive for 3 days and 3 nights," and as such he didn't fulfill the prophecies.

"Crucified"? He says now, what does the word "crucified" mean? Crucified means to kill. To kill by hanging or impaling on the cross. If a person is put onto a cross, for example, numerous cases we have records here, from our newspapers, Philipinos, it says: "13 Philipinos had themselves 'crucified' imitating Christ". 13 Philipinos. Dozens of Philipinos, every Easter, they get "crucified" in the Philipines. Dozens. I'm sure you read these records. But what is actually taking place is: that the person is taken to the cross, he is hanged, he is nailed, and he is brought down, and he's alive, and he walks away smoking (a) cigarette. Now, in your language, sir, there is not a word, there is not a verb, in your language, to describe that. That the man was put on the cross? what is that, crufied? It says "crucified" here, but the man is alive. So what happened, was he crucified? 20 years later, somebody shoots him and he dies, or he meets a motorcar accident and he dies. How would you say was his end? Crucified, or hanged, or shot, or drowned? How? You have no word in your language. The deficiency is in your language, to explain the situation, that if the man was put on the cross, and had he not died, what would you call that? A man is taken to the gallows, a noose is put around his neck, and the rope is pulled, but before he expires, they cut the rope, and he is reprieved, 10 years later, 15 years later, the man dies a natural death, was he hanged? I want you to tell me, not un-hanged, what happened to him, in your language, you haven't got a word. In your language, you have no words to describe situations like that. You know, a verb, to tell you what happened. So, you can't say he was hanged, you can't say he was crucified, but yet, the way they do that now is to put that in inverted commas " ... ". You see, in other words, that's what people say, that he "died". That he "died", you see, he was "crucified", in inverted commas. I have now coined a word... to save Christendom their misery, of not having a word, and that word is "crucifiction". CRUCI FICTION, in other words, it's just an act, taking place. The man is not actually dying, so he is not "crucified", in inverted commas, rather, that the person was crucificted, FICTED, as in like a fiction. Crucificted.

So, I don't know, what issues, now if I give you briefly, I said, look, there are so many reasons that we say Christ was not crucified, according to your scriptures. In the book of Acts, chapter 1, verse 3: it reads: and he gave, after his alleged crucifixion,  (Acts 1:3) he (Jesus) "gave many convincing proofs that he was alive". ALIVE. (Acts 1:3) he (Jesus) gave "convincing proofs that he was alive". Mary Magdalene, she goes and testifies to the other disciples (Luke 24:23) that "he was alive" (Luke 24:11) "and they believed them not". Alive, ALIVE, not resurrected. The word there is "alive" (Acts 1:3), it is again "alive" (Luke 24:23). Then the other 2 from Emmaus, when they return to that upper room, where they had the last supper, (Mark 16:12) they come and testify that they had met Jesus, and that he is ALIVE, and they believed not (NOT IN EARLIER MANUSCRIPTS) (John 20:25) Thomas is told that Jesus is ALIVE and he believed not Amazing situation, you read this in your own mother tongue, the word is alive, alive, alive, alive not resurrected, resurrected, resurrected, so you invent a word, "resurrected" and you thumb-suck it and tell the world that "alive" and "resurrection" are one-in-the-same thing. It is not. Alive is alive...it's as if the Holy Ghost didn't know the word "resurrected". If that was what had happened, then the Holy Ghost must inspire Luke, and Mark, and Matthew, and John, that he is resurrected, resurrected...not once, not once are they made to say "resurrected" they are made to say alive, alive, alive, alive. and the man (Jesus), he is in disguise, eternally in disguise. He never came out into the open, why? If he has conquered death, there is no need to be afraid any more, because the scripture says (Heb 9:27) "And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the judgment", you can't die twice, but this man (Jesus), you can see the way he's behaving as if he has escaped death by the skin of his teeth. Pontius Pilate, he finds the man not guilty (of heresy). His wife sees a dream in which she is told that no harm should come to this just man. He is only 3 hours on the cross, and no man can die on the cross in 3 hours. According to your own Church historians, people who write biographies of Jesus, William Hanna, in his "The Life of Christ", he says that the victim of crucifixion invariable survives the 1st day, and sometimes he lived up to the 2nd and 3rd day, and there are instances where people have lived up to the 4th and 5th day on the cross, alive. Why should Jesus die within 3 hours? The other 2 that were supposed to have been hanged with him, they were alive when they had to break their bones (to speed up death before sunset). The bones of Jesus, the legs of Jesus were not broken, why not? Because the Bible says this is fulfillment of prophesy. It can only help a person, if the bones are not broken, if he is alive (for breathing). If the man is dead, and you break his bones, you saw them to pieces, you smash them up, what difference does it make? So, when you look at each and every individual act, I can give you 30 different reasons from the scriptures to say that Jesus Christ was neither killed nor crucified. You have this book here, "Crucifixion or Cruci-Fiction". This book is available absolutely free of charge, and you read it for yourself, but I don't know, this "wool" that the brother...the Doctor has pulled over our eyes, how many... what portion of that wool can I start removing in these 10 minutes. So now, I hope, at question time, we'll have a better opportunity to justify the subject whether Jesus Christ was crucified or was that a fiction.

- and our last prayer is that all praise is given to God, Lord of the worlds -


Question - Mr. Deedat. - "When Jesus Raised Lazarus from the dead, or any of the others so raised, were they spiritualized? Paul spoke of the resurrection at the end of time."
[but actually Paul spoke about Jesus' resurrection (1 Cor 15)]

Answer - You see, the difference between resurrection and resuscitation is obvious. If Lazarus was resurrected, in that case he would still be walking this earth, he might have been here with us. Because as the scripture tells us, that no man can die twice (Heb 9:27), so where is he now? If he was resurrected, either he's spiritualized and gone up to heaven, but that didn't appear to the Jews so, he walked among the people, and he lived among the people, and he went back home, and he ate food. So, it must have been a resuscitation, not a resurrection in the sense, that (Heb 9:27) only "ONCE" you are resurrected "but after this the judgment". I hope that answers that question.

Question - "Dear brother Ahmed Deedat, please clear the misunderstanding for the Christians about Jesus' never being crucified nor killed on the cross, but the situation looked like Jesus was there."

Answer - The Doctor made it appear, you know, as he was accusing me of reading "into" the scripture. Uh, not seeing that he had been doing the very same thing. Worse. You see, he says from the Holy Quran, that the Quran says (4:157) {...They only follow conjecture...}  You see, "fiction". But, it says (4:157) {...But it was made to appear to them so...} Now "shubbiha" doesn't mean that somebody was substituted. The doctor says: somebody was substituted the Quran says. Now the Quran doesn't say anything to that effect. I don't know whether the Doctor knows Arabic, I'm sure he does, the amount of time he spent in the Middle East. And if he can show, from the Quran, that this word "shubbiha lahum" means substitution, it would be something. Interpretations of people is quite a thing apart. We are talking about BOOKS. When I'm referring from the Bible, I said, look, your book says (Luke 24:39) "a spirit has no flesh and bones, AS YOU SEE ME HAVE" If I were to tell you that because I've got "flesh and bones", I'm not a spirit, I'm not a ghost, I'm not a spook Is that what it means in your language, you English man? Is that what it means in your language? And he says "Yes". If I've got "flesh and bones" then I'm not the other thing. I asked the same question to the Zulu, in his language, I said, is this what it means in your language, and he agrees, and every language group on earth. When you say the (Luke 24:39) "spirit has no flesh and bones, AS YOU SEE ME HAVE" it means what it says. Now you have to tell me that, look, in my language, when a man says "a spirit has no flesh and bones", it means "a spirit HAS flesh and bones". Sometimes, we English people, we speak in opposites. See, and we mean the same thing. When we say "Slow Down", we mean also "Slow Up". You know, one fellow says "Slow up, Slow up man, you're too fast". The other says, "Look, he's telling you, why don't you slow down, why don't you slow down". He says, slow down, slow up, mean the same thing. When we say in English "Look out", we don't mean "look out", we mean "look in". So what are you talking about? What are you talking about? A French man was trying to learn English, sitting in a skyscraper building, tall building sitting by the window, and hears somebody shouting "Look out", and he looks "out" and a brick grazed him on the head. He says "What's this? You know, what kind of language is this?" "He tells me to look out, and I look out." So he says "No, when we say look out, it means you look in, you don't look out". Doctor, Doctor (friend), I say please tell us, tell these people, that in my language, in English, when we say (Luke 24:39) "a spirit has no flesh and bones, AS YOU SEE ME HAVE" that it has flesh and bones. Tell them sir.

Question - "which version (of the Bible) do you suggest to be the best" (question referred to Ahmed Deedat)

Answer - Let me correct Dr. Douglas (false analogy between Bible "versions" and Quran "translations"). The difference between "version" and "translation". You see, the Christian scholars and missionaries are trying to confuse the Muslims with the term, that "version" and "translation" means one and the same thing. It doesn't. You have, in Christendom, the Roman Catholic version of the Bible. The Douay-Rheims version. That version has 73 books inside. 73 books. The one...that the Protestant world upholds is the King James Version of the Bible. This (King James) version has 66 books. 7 books less. Now you see, it's not just translation. It is not a choice of words. When the Muslim says ... translation, he means translation: Yusuf Ali, Daryabadi, Muhammad Ali, Mawdudi. Each and every one of these are "translations". The difference is in the choice of words. Synonymous words, terms, different words are being used to translate a certain word, according to the person's understanding or grasp of the language. That's a translation. But when 7 books are thrown out of a book of God, Those 7 books, according to brother Jimmy Swaggart, he said he said they are "spurious", those 7 books. These scholars say that they are "apocrypha", I'm asking "What is apocrypha?" Apocrypha is a technical term for saying "doubtful authority". In other words, it's not the word of God. So, the Protestants say "no". Then Dr. Douglas is a Protestant, he doesn't accept those 7 books as the word of God. If you do, then you are a Roman Catholic.

Then, he said "the most accurate". We go to the Greek scriptures, and the most accurate rendering of the scriptures is the R.S.V. That is what your scholars say. 32 scholars of the highest eminence in America, backed by 50 cooperating denominations, they produced the R.S.V. - Revised Standard Version of the Bible. And they say a "beautiful" thing about the King James Version, which every Christian takes an oath by, including Jimmy Swaggart. This is the book he uses. This is the book he sells. Now, they say, the revisers, that this book, the King James Version, has "GRAVE DEFECTS". And that these DEFECTS are so many and so SERIOUS, as to call for revision, so they revised it. So, they threw out... leave out the word "begotten". We're going to the Greek scriptures. Hm, I don't know Greek.  But... THE TRINITY. The Holy Trinity, the bedrock of Christendom, Christianity. Because, what is the dispute? We say God is one, he says God is one. But they say that God is a triune God: "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost", so we are at variance. We are at variance. Now that verse on the trinity, the only place in this Bible... I don't know whether it is in his Bible, the Greek, he didn't say which version he is holding, but the bulk of Christendom, this (King James) is the one they have in their hands, And the verse is in the First Epistle of John, chapter 5, verse 7, where it says:
(1 John 5:7) "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
And it is thrown out as a fabrication. Out of the R.S.V., by your scholars. So that's a VERSION.  It's thrown out as a fabrication, adulteration. Then the ascension of Jesus, the only places in the Gospels where it occurs, is:  Mark 16:19, that "he was received up into heaven". Luke 24:51, "was taken up into heaven". They are also thrown out as fabrications. Now that is "version". You see, this is not saying that's translation. That's not translation, things that were supposed to be NOT there, they threw it out, and honesty demands that you do.  So that is the difference between a version and a translation.

Question - "If Christ showed the disciples that he had NOT died, why would they go forth preaching that he had died?"

Answer - I do not read into the scripture that they started preaching, you know, his immediate disciples, that Christ had died. What they were telling (others) is that he's "ALIVE", "ALIVE", "ALIVE" (Acts 1:3, Luke 24:23, Mark 16:12). And it was an anti-climax to the idea that they had, that the man was killed, on the cross. That was their experience, because they were not eyewitnesses or earwitnesses to the happenings. So, now comes Jesus, and he demonstrates to them that he is there, he's the very same Jesus that was before (Luke 24:39-43. Eating broiled fish and honeycomb (Luke 24:42-43), and going and traveling with them, ever in hiding. So they said, no, the man is alive. We expected him to have died, he hadn't died. So that was the conviction, that God saved him. And that is what they were preaching.

This idea, that he died for the sins of mankind, it doesn't seem to occur to me, because this is against the law of God Almighty, where He says: (Ezek 18:20) "The soul that sinneth, it shall die". This is the law of God. That the one that sins, that soul shall die. And (Ezek 18:20) "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father". Meaning, whatever father Adam did, and mother Eve did, He says (Ezek 18:20) "The son shall not bear the iniquity", the SIN "of the father" (Ezek 18:20)  "Neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son" He said (Ezek 18:20) "the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him". This is the law of God, that whatever good thing the good man does, he gets his reward. (Ezek 18:20) "And the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him" Whatever evil thing the evil man does, he gets punished for it. (Ezek 18:21) "But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed..." (Ezek 18:21) "...and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die." This is the law of God for all eternity. He does not take an innocent man to pay for the guilty. This is against His Justice. The Doctor was talking about the Justice of God, the Mercy of God, I say what kind of justice and mercy is this, that He can't punish the evil mongers, the sinners, so he takes his own son, and he gets him crucified. Love? You call that love? Killing an innocent man, his own innocent son? Amazing. Amazing type of reasoning, logic. The God of the Bible, as well as the Quran, the Bible says, in the book of Isaiah: (Isa 43:25) "...I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins". In other words, once he forgives you, he's not asking you for blood, of sheep, or goat, or lamb, nor of His son, but He says I forgive sins "for mine own sake" and once I have forgiven, I do "not remember it", it's all blotted out. This is the law of God, in the Bible, and the teaching of Jesus, where Jesus Christ he says: (Mat 10:38) He "is not worthy of me", "he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me" Take up your cross and follow me, in other words, the way I carry my responsibility, you carry yours. (Mat 5:20) verily, verily, "I say unto you" Jesus says: (Mat 5:20) "except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven" There is no heaven for you, Jesus says to his disciples, unless you are better than the Jew, and I am asking, how can you be better than the Jew, by not keeping the laws and the commandments.

Question - To Ahmed Deedat. "You base your arguments on small points of the Bible. The same Bible which you believe is inaccurate. To me, this is a contradiction. Why do you do this? I do respect your religion, but this is a problem I can't understand."

Answer - Mr. Chairman and brethren, you see in every civilized nation on earth, people have disputes, and when these disputes go to court, the plaintiff, the complainant, he goes into the "box", into the witness box, and he testifies, he puts forth his claim, and the opposing advocate, attorney, he cross examines the witness. When he's cross examining the witness on the evidence that he has given, and on that evidence, if he can prove to the judge's satisfaction, that the man is lying, lying, lying, if he feels satisfied that he has convinced the judge, in his cross examination that the witness was a liar, what he does is, he closes the case, and he asks for absolution with costs, and he will get it. And this is normal practice, an everyday affair: dispute, you cross examine the person, and you come to a conclusion. Now the Holy Quran tells us to do the same. It says: Quran 2:111 {and they say}, Who? The Jews and the Christians. {"None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian."} That you Muslims will never, never enter (paradise), there's no heaven for you, there's no salvation for you, except (if) you become a Jew, or except (if) you become a Christian. In answer to that, God Almighty makes us say: Quran 2:111 {Those are their (vain) desires.} That this is their wishful thinking, vain desires, hallucination. Quran 2:111 [Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."} Let's take a look at your certificate: that entitles you to heaven, and destines us to hell. So they have produced it: the Bible. In 2000 different languages.  And he's saying "My Bible says this, my Bible says that", so we have to cross examine the Bible, your witnesses. And we are proving from the mouth of your witnesses, that the thing that you are alleging, what you are saying, you are claiming, is not there.

You see, now you say, "What about the other things which are true?" I said, look, that is not at stake. If the Bible said that "God is one", we say we agree with you. He says I quoted you from the Bible, it said, look "Everyone is responsible for his or her action", I say we agree with you. Can't you see? If you say, "God is a loving Father in heaven", I said, right, we agree with you. But when you say that He's like Shylock (a loan shark), wanting to get a pound of flesh from his creation, Adam and Eve sin, and he makes you responsible. And, at the beginning of 1986, there were 4.8 billion people on earth, and according to the Christian belief, that everyone goes to hell.
For what? The sin that Adam and Eve committed. So I said, this is the most nonsensical idea, because Adam didn't ask me before eating the apple, nor did Eve ask my wife. How can God hold us responsible?

Question - "Mr. Deedat, in the Book of Revelation, Jesus claims that 'I am the first, and the last', and also he said 'I am Alpha and Omega, and the beginning and the end'. If Christ was not God, how could he make such a claim?"

Answer - The Book of Revelation, scholars will tell you, was a dream of John. It was a DREAM, which he has put down on paper. These are what people hear, if at all, that if Jesus appeared to him, to John and told him "I am Alpha and Omega", if he did, which I do not believe, that he's talking about God Almighty, that God is saying "I am Alpha and Omega, I am the first and the last", not Jesus. But suppose you put these words into the mouth of Jesus, according to your translations, even then, a DREAM. You know, people, when they eat a bit too much. It happens, you dream dreams, things that you see. And you read this Book of Revelation, describing to you certain beasts, with eyes outside, and eyes inside, and you know, something which absolutely, you have eaten too much, you start thinking in those terms.

So I said, "While Jesus walked this earth". We have to now understand that while he walked this earth, In NONE of the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke or John, is the expression ever used, "I am God" or "Worship me". On the contrary, he says: (John 14:28) "The Father is greater than I", he says (John 10:29) "My Father ... is greater than all", he says (John 5:30) "I can of my own self do NOTHING; as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek NOT my own will, but the will of the Father which has sent me.", he says (Mat 24:36) "of that day and hour knoweth NO man, NO, not the angels in heaven, but my Father ONLY.

In my knowledge I'm not like God, in my power I'm not like God, he says, (Mat 28:18) "all power is GIVEN unto me" it is not mine. (Luke 11:20) "I with the finger of God cast out devils", (Mat 12:28) "by the spirit of God" do these things, where does he say that HE is doing the works? That it is "his" power, "he" is doing it, nowhere.

And Peter testified in the quotation that the Doctor gave: Peter, in the Book of Acts, testifies: (Acts 2:22) "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN approved of God among you".  "a MAN", not God, "approved among you". "a MAN". He quoted it, but of course, the quotation went off such, like water off a duck's back, you people hardly apprehended anything.  It says (Acts 2:22) "a MAN approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs," (Acts 2:22) "which GOD DID BY him". He (Jesus) didn't do it.  (Acts 2:22) "which GOD DID BY him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know". I said, look, we agree with that. The Quran testifies to that effect, that he gave life to the dead, by God's permission, he healed those blind and the lepers, by God's permission. We agree with that. But I said, look now, your interpretation, your reading, YOU are "reading into" your own scripture something that is not there, and which is contrary to what Jesus claimed.

He's teaching us, he says, come, I'll teach you how to pray. (Mat 6:9) "After this manner therefore pray ye": Say, (Mat 6:9) "OUR Father which art in heaven". "OUR" father, yours and mine, including Judas, not the "Father of Jesus Christ in heaven".  (Mat 6:9) "Hallowed by THY name". Singular. "THY" name. (Mat 6:10) "THY kingdom come, THY will be done in earth, as it is in heaven". Where does he say "I am God", where does he say "Worship me"? Nowhere. Nowhere.

It is something now, like I just heard on TV, the program of Jimmy Swaggart, giving some lessons on TV, and at the end of that lesson, on Babylon, one of his panel members, he says "You know, I've been to Mongolia. I've just been to Mongolia". "And there" he says "I went to a Buddhist temple. And there, the supervisor while he was with me, I'm asking him (about) this wheel, prayer wheel, on which (Buddhist) people are pinning on your prayers in written form, "and you turn the wheel. What for?" (The Buddhist) says "No...now, we are asking, in this form, asking Buddha for help". (The Christian) said, "Look, I read so many books on Buddha. NOWHERE does Buddha claim to be God. NOWHERE." This is one of the panel members of Jimmy Swaggart (who) says: "Nowhere (does Buddha) say that Buddha is God". He said "Nowhere". (The Buddhist) said: "Yes, that is true, but we say he is God. We make him God". This is the same. What (the Christian) is talking (about), laughing at the Buddhist, I said, my brother, you are in the same boat. You are doing the very same thing.


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